Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[taptap]

Putting theft on a ranged combatant probably isn't going to work well. (Cat assassin try to keep distance usually afaik.)

The best system for artefacts is the one, that allows me to find the Shortsword of Galadriel and to forget about the fact, that there is a system. Decreasing chance is fine as any system. I also would like to mention, that there are some special items, which are as good or better than some artefacts. (Did I mention the [-1, 2d5] Mithril Corslet of Resilience +1 I found recently? I happily dropped artefact armour for it.)

[AnonymousHero]

Yes, that would be an interesting rule.
Here is a related, similar rule: behind the scenes, the game picks a certain set of artefacts that are in the dungeon in this run-through. Perhaps a fixed number, perhaps deliberately spread out over the different depths, or perhaps with some other tweaking. Then these artefacts are the only ones that can occur during that game. (This would obviously be combined with increasing the artefact generation chance to give about the same expected number of artefacts per game).

This is an interesting hack and very similar to how Randarts work in Vanilla.i. e. no infinite "chances". I can't say that I, personally, am a fan, but I think the "defininteness" of it works for many people. (After all, we don't see that many people complain about the randarts in V.)

EDIT: Oh, and btw, welcome to popularity half & Scatha: You'll never leave!

[Derakon]

I tend to think that a system where the game pre-selects which artifacts are able to be generated, and then doesn't tweak generation chance based on artifacts that have been found/missed, would be preferable. I grant that they tend to produce similar effects, but the former feels more natural to me.

[BlueFish]

Here is a related, similar rule: behind the scenes, the game picks a certain set of artefacts that are in the dungeon in this run-through. Perhaps a fixed number, perhaps deliberately spread out over the different depths, or perhaps with some other tweaking. Then these artefacts are the only ones that can occur during that game. (This would obviously be combined with increasing the artefact generation chance to give about the same expected number of artefacts per game).

In this case, if you walk past an artefact, you won't find it again and the total number of artefacts you could find goes down.

I think that this would play almost the same as the current system. Indeed, it would be so similar, that I don't think it is worth implementing. But I mention it to show how it can be realistic (as well as balancing) to have the decreasing chance of finding artefacts as you go.

I guess I don't understand the motivation behind the whole concept of limiting artifacts beyond the implicit probablistic limit of making them rare drops. If artifacts are sufficiently rare and Sil has a certain turncount limit, that implies, for a game in which the limit is reached, a certain number of artifacts will be found, as a function of amount of dungeon ground explored and number of item-dropping monsters killed.

It seems like maybe the primary motivation for the current system is making the first couple artifacts more likely, rather than limiting artifacts in general.

Personally I'd be fine with (and would prefer) the simpler and more intuitive system of preserve=on and no fudging of the artifact rolls depending on number already generated. This might make the standard deviation of number of artifacts found greater, but the average the same. That sort of randomness is fun in its own right, and is a core gameplay principle of roguelikes, to me.

In terms of realism, the current method (and the method it was designed to emulate) implies a sort of celestial compass the player uses to draw them to levels on which these finite artifacts were generated. It doesn't make realism sense that the first time a player visits 500', there's a greater chance of an artifact being there than the second time. But indeed that is the effect of the current system.

One way to keep all current systems in place and yet to solve the "lost artifact you never saw" issue would be to generate artifacts only as monster drops rather than pre-generated floor litter.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

In terms of realism, the current method (and the method it was designed to emulate) implies a sort of celestial compass the player uses to draw them to levels on which these finite artifacts were generated. It doesn't make realism sense that the first time a player visits 500', there's a greater chance of an artifact being there than the second time. But indeed that is the effect of the current system.

+1. The mechanic doesn't sound real-world realistic, but that doesn't bother me. A celestial compass is not unrealistic in Middle Earth, artifacts have a will to be found... Funnily enough the exact same reasoning can be used to justify preserving artifacts.

[taptap]

One way to keep all current systems in place and yet to solve the "lost artifact you never saw" issue would be to generate artifacts only as monster drops rather than pre-generated floor litter.

I assume you don't play pacifists.

[Patashu]

Edit: Maybe some sort of cat thief is in order. A cat that is largely not dangerous but can steal artefacts or swaps from your inventory at 650'-700' could be fun!!

Have you ever played any of the games (mostly they are on nintendo consoles and handhelds) in the Shiren the Wanderer: Mysterious Dungeon series? They have a lot of monsters with varied ways of messing with items, inventory, your stats and so on (stat down, level down, corrode equipment, curse equipment, turn stuff on the ground into weeds, turn stuff in your inventory into weeds, hypnotize you and make you use/do something random, steal money, steal items, knocking items off of your body, knock you down and make items spill out of your inventory...)

http://shiren.wikifoundry.com/page/Shiren+2+Monsters

http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/581042-...ren/faqs/14612 ctrl+F 2. Monsters

On the subject of armour swaps: What if you couldn't swap armour if any monster was aware of you? It would emulate armour swapping being an action too long to do in the middle of battle without it actually being multi-turn.

[debo]

I fucking love shiren the wanderer.

Edit: You forgot to mention 'turn you into a rice ball'

[BlueFish]

I assume you don't play pacifists.

Nobody "plays" pacifists, they "work at" pacifists.

But yeah point taken. Artifacts could still drop from chests though.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

On the subject of armour swaps: What if you couldn't swap armour if any monster was aware of you?

What if you could only swap armour in phone booths?

[Patashu]

What if you could only swap armour in phone booths?

This is meant in jest, but it's a pretty interesting idea (maybe not for Sil though because it would be hard to justify what kind of physical 'thing' this armour swapping station would be)

[half]

In terms of realism, the current method (and the method it was designed to emulate) implies a sort of celestial compass the player uses to draw them to levels on which these finite artifacts were generated.

Good point, however it is still more realistic than all alternatives.

[half]

+1. The mechanic doesn't sound real-world realistic, but that doesn't bother me. A celestial compass is not unrealistic in Middle Earth, artifacts have a will to be found... Funnily enough the exact same reasoning can be used to justify preserving artifacts.

These are also good points. Nice to see you around again Mikko.

[half]

Have you ever played any of the games (mostly they are on nintendo consoles and handhelds) in the Shiren the Wanderer: Mysterious Dungeon series?

On the subject of armour swaps: What if you couldn't swap armour if any monster was aware of you? It would emulate armour swapping being an action too long to do in the middle of battle without it actually being multi-turn.

I haven't played Shiren, but have heard a lot about it and admire it. Sil's mechanics are aimed at approximately a pen and paper RPG level, with some mechanics that are a bit more like boardgames. Shiren is much more boardgame like. Perhaps a cross between a boardgame and a platformer? I really like the explicit sequences of monsters that take one mechanic and keep iterating on it, though they would be a bit out of place in Sil. As would many of the mechanics themselves. In general, Shiren is quite cute and abstract, which lets it get away with a grab-bag of interesting strong mechanics. Every now and then we come up with neat mechanics but realise they won't work with the flavour of Sil.

Your armour swapping idea is neat, and along a good track. It wouldn't quite work though as it would let you know if the monster in the other room had become unwary. You could do it with visible monsters only, but it is a bit odd that it is better to not be able to see the invisible ones, or to turn your light off etc.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Good point, however it is still more realistic than all alternatives.

The traditional, pure random artifact generation method might not be preferable gameplay-wise, but I don't think it is in any way unrealistic.

Think of it this way: the game is capable of generating infinite different dungeon levels, but we don't actually believe that all those levels actually exist in the Morgoth's halls, do we? I'd say there are only about a hundred levels or so.

It's the exact same situation with artifacts. Maybe the game is capable of generating a hundred different artifacts, but only ten or so of them actually exist in the dungeons. The exact number might vary from game to game.

Only what actually happens in the game truly exists in the imaginary game world, and only this part needs to be plausible. We don't have to rationalize anything else.