Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[BlueFish]

Doesn't Sil also remove an artifact permanently if it was generated and you didn't pick it up? It seems categorically the same idea.

Yes it's like "preserve = off" in vanilla, and yes I agree it's categorically the same. I don't like "preserve = off" being a permanent fixture of Sil, either. Exploring the whole level is strongly discouraged by the turncount limit and every game probably has more than a handful of lost artifacts. I'm not sure why that's a good thing from a game design standpoint.

[Patashu]

Yes it's like "preserve = off" in vanilla, and yes I agree it's categorically the same. I don't like "preserve = off" being a permanent fixture of Sil, either. Exploring the whole level is strongly discouraged by the turncount limit and every game probably has more than a handful of lost artifacts. I'm not sure why that's a good thing from a game design standpoint.

What is the difference between a lost artifact and an artifact that did not spawn in the time limit Sil gives you? In either case, you don't get to use it. Sil with its 'anti-scumming' principles is balanced so that if you don't get the items and equipment you wanted you can still win.

It hurts to lose an artifact, but so does
-Using your last Orcish Liquor
-Running into a stat drainer
-Running into an acid attack
-Walking into a false floor, or into a web and getting surrounded by shadow spiders
-Really wanting an artifact for your god build and not getting it
-etc

[BlueFish]

What is the difference between a lost artifact and an artifact that did not spawn in the time limit Sil gives you? In either case, you don't get to use it. Sil with its 'anti-scumming' principles is balanced so that if you don't get the items and equipment you wanted you can still win.

It hurts to lose an artifact, but so does
-Using your last Orcish Liquor
-Running into a stat drainer
-Running into an acid attack
-Walking into a false floor, or into a web and getting surrounded by shadow spiders
-Really wanting an artifact for your god build and not getting it
-etc

That's your argument? That your character can be harmed in many ways and thus any way in which harm is done is appropriate?

You seem to be trying really hard to nitpick my opinion. I'm sorry if I've upset you in the past.

[Psi]

Missing an artefact *is* more painful than it not being generated. With every artefact generated in Sil, the probability of finding another one decreases. Therefore if you miss one, you are doubly unfortunate.

That said I like the way things are and I've never found myself short of equipment. At the end of the day (with a few notable exceptions) there is not a huge gap between artefacts and {special}.

[Scatha]

The artefact rule is flavour-driven. Unlike regular items, there's only supposed to be one in the world (so at most one in Angband), so it would be very odd to run across it in two different parts of the dungeon. We do the same with the unique vaults (and Orodruth) -- they can only be generated once per game.

It makes slightly more sense to allow artefacts to be re-generated than vaults, since theoretically they could have been carried over, but that would still be very strange. Preserve mode doesn't really make flavour sense. It makes some gameplay sense in Vanilla, since you have the opportunity to spend an arbitrary amount of time scumming for a particular artifact (and generally Vanilla doesn't have permanent setbacks to your character short of death). Sil does have permanent setbacks -- the main one is the turn clock -- so there's no reason to distort the flavour in order not to have a very minor one possible with artefacts.

[Patashu]

That's your argument? That your character can be harmed in many ways and thus any way in which harm is done is appropriate?

Yes. The convention in Sil is that pseudo-permanent harm is OK, as I have demonstrated. Preserve being off and artifacts being scurryable off of a level follows this convention. Since this game is not an RPG where you want 'that perfect save file', no artifact is necessary to beat the game or even guaranteed to generate, your character will never be perfect and have many setbacks and missed opportunities and blown resources over the course of their lives, etc. there is no reason why artifacts need to have special protection to the contrary. As opposed to, say, Angband, where you are encouraged to play for as long as you like, generate as many artifacts as you like, etc. and preserve being off is a large blow as the balance of the game assumes you find all the artifacts you want, and missing a key one offsets you against that balance.

[taptap]

Losing Orcrist to a thief is unfortunate. Because you had the chance to find it early when it really helps and lost it when it already was close. It also can happen that a thief just steals an artefact you already had and manages to escape. But this is a memorable event and part of the richness of the game (minor, memorable setback). You may even have prevented his escape with a staff of imprisonment (otherwise admittedly hardly useful) or a better ranged option.

That artefacts are only generated once is imo the main mechanism against stair abuse and 900ft. scumming. Stairs used to take a 100 turns, since they don't anymore it is often a good idea for weakish Edains e.g. to go up and instantly down again (you can't do it several times in a row, but one up and down usually doesn't leads to broken stairs) once you face a too difficult obstacle. However, you have at least to worry about both the initial floor you left and the floor you barely touched containing unique treasures you might have missed. This mechanism also limits the usefulness of the "dive to 900 ft. and repeat 900 / 950 ft. several times" because you won't find artefacts that were generated before. Some tend to be dropped earlier (if it all) and thus are hardly found in the very deep dungeons. As far as I remember (well I can fool myself here), I never found the robe of Aredhel (+3 evasion robe + freedom of movement, which is amazing for certain builds) past 600 ft.

[BlueFish]

The artefact rule is flavour-driven. Unlike regular items, there's only supposed to be one in the world (so at most one in Angband), so it would be very odd to run across it in two different parts of the dungeon. We do the same with the unique vaults (and Orodruth) -- they can only be generated once per game.

It makes slightly more sense to allow artefacts to be re-generated than vaults, since theoretically they could have been carried over, but that would still be very strange. Preserve mode doesn't really make flavour sense. It makes some gameplay sense in Vanilla, since you have the opportunity to spend an arbitrary amount of time scumming for a particular artifact (and generally Vanilla doesn't have permanent setbacks to your character short of death). Sil does have permanent setbacks -- the main one is the turn clock -- so there's no reason to distort the flavour in order not to have a very minor one possible with artefacts.

Other than the turn clock, I don't see how Sil has permanent setbacks more than vanilla with Preserve off. I guess armor degradation from acid is more permanent in Sil, since there are no enchant armor scrolls, but that seems a small thing.

I don't think re-generating an artifact that had never been seen disrupts the narrative (or flavor, if you prefer) of the game in any way. The situation that caused my original frustration presents a clear way in which the same artifact could show up in two different places - a monster picked it up and carried it there, before meeting an unfortunate end in the jaws of its new owner. Not only is the narrative plausible, the player can actually watch it happen in front of them.

[BlueFish]

Losing Orcrist to a thief is unfortunate. Because you had the chance to find it early when it really helps and lost it when it already was close. It also can happen that a thief just steals an artefact you already had and manages to escape. But this is a memorable event and part of the richness of the game (minor, memorable setback). You may even have prevented his escape with a staff of imprisonment (otherwise admittedly hardly useful) or a better ranged option.

Is it possible for thieves to steal artifacts from your inventory? That's never happened to me, but I often am carrying at least one around.

As it happens, the situation was a sufficient downer that I lost some small amount of motivation to keep that character alive, and I made some subtle mistake that Sil players will tend to make when in that mindset, and that character died soon after.

That artefacts are only generated once is imo the main mechanism against stair abuse and 900ft. scumming. Stairs used to take a 100 turns, since they don't anymore it is often a good idea for weakish Edains e.g. to go up and instantly down again (you can't do it several times in a row, but one up and down usually doesn't leads to broken stairs) once you face a too difficult obstacle. However, you have at least to worry about both the initial floor you left and the floor you barely touched containing unique treasures you might have missed. This mechanism also limits the usefulness of the "dive to 900 ft. and repeat 900 / 950 ft. several times" because you won't find artefacts that were generated before. Some tend to be dropped earlier (if it all) and thus are hardly found in the very deep dungeons. As far as I remember (well I can fool myself here), I never found the robe of Aredhel (+3 evasion robe + freedom of movement, which is amazing for certain builds) past 600 ft

It would never occur to me to consider it abuse to explore 900/950' within the time limit, with or without "preserve". I doubt turning preserve off would make such "scumming" appreciably more beneficial. When I've done it, it's been for consumables.

[debo]

I have an ancillary question to this -- does orcrist not slay orcs? (I believe Glamdring does too.) I'm surprised that orc thieves would pick up orc-slaying weapons off the floor! I thought there was some behaviour that caused them to skip over weapons that slay them.

[Derakon]

I have an ancillary question to this -- does orcrist not slay orcs? (I believe Glamdring does too.) I'm surprised that orc thieves would pick up orc-slaying weapons off the floor! I thought there was some behaviour that caused them to skip over weapons that slay them.

That's certainly true in Vanilla, but personally I always thought it weird because monsters can be generated carrying items that they could not normally pick up. This is glaringly obvious when it comes to artifacts: no monster can pick up an artifact, but you'll get many of them from killing monsters.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sil changed this behavior.

[taptap]

I guess it is fairly common among speedy players to repeat 900 or 950 ft. once (or twice?) when you don't feel ready for the throne room and even if done mainly for consumables I won't say no to nice items. And even more so when you play a smith and scout for forges. And a single item can make a lot of difference - especially when it includes abilities / special functionality (sharpness). Say finding Angrist with a pacifist singer makes it unneccessary to take any melee and song of sharpness at all which otherwise consume much of your endgame experience (which is much lower as pacifist but you need something to break out a Sil) or for a fighting singer (w/ mastery) an item boosting song by some more crucial points (either artefact or a nice sword of shadows). While none of this is necessary and there are dozens of possible builds, still single items can do a lot of work in your build.

Usually thieves exist only in a depth I don't have artefacts (is it artifact or artefact btw?) but I found them stealing and gathering a large amount of loot sometimes, I would be surprised if they were coded to ignore artefacts as such.

[BlueFish]

I guess it is fairly common among speedy players to repeat 900 or 950 ft. once (or twice?) when you don't feel ready for the throne room and even if done mainly for consumables I won't say no to nice items. And even more so when you play a smith and scout for forges. And a single item can make a lot of difference - especially when it includes abilities / special functionality (sharpness). Say finding Angrist with a pacifist singer makes it unneccessary to take any melee and song of sharpness at all which otherwise consume much of your endgame experience (which is much lower as pacifist but you need something to break out a Sil) or for a fighting singer (w/ mastery) an item boosting song by some more crucial points (either artefact or a nice sword of shadows). While none of this is necessary and there are dozens of possible builds, still single items can do a lot of work in your build.

I agree that found items can help. Indeed.

But there's a difference between rationalizations of how things work, and reasoned justifications that that's how they should work. Scatha presented a reasoned justification for how things work currently, one that I disagree with, but at least a justification. Ultimately you seem to be claiming that Preserve=on would make Sil too easy. I suspect that would not hold up in practice, and that the difficulty of the game would be essentially unchanged.

To me, a very fun part of a roguelike is thinking you might find some certain artifact that might work really well with your build. I think it diminishes that fun thinking that every time you leave a level without exploring it fully, you may have deleted that artifact from the game.

I suspect Preserve=ON is the most common setting in Angband. It is the default, and defaults are chosen to correspond with some combination of community consensus and best gameplay.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I like preserve off in Angband. In Angband, switching dungeon levels has almost no cost, and preserve off introduces interesting challenges occasionally.

In Halls of Mist, I turned preserve artifacts permanently on and removed the option. I had other mechanics that already made it very costly to switch levels, and preserve off wasn't adding anything interesting to the mix.

I'd imagine that in Sil preserve off gives the player an incentive to clear levels completely? Wouldn't it be better for gameplay if they descended when they're ready?

[BlueFish]

Speaking of scumming 900-950, has anybody ever tried self-sustaining scumming of random re-spawns at 950', maybe with a bunch of "sustenance" equipment on? I wonder if enough food would drop to make that indefinitely sustainable.