Sil 1.1

[debo]

I thought an easy interim fix might just be to have Morgoth get progressively more 'enraged' as he takes damage. Perhaps at level 1, his damage and evasion could increase, at L2 he gets a speed boost, etc. This would let chars who are just trying to steal a Sil have the "normal" experience, while providing a bit more challenge for those dead-set on killing him.

I do think that for newer players who are just trying to steal the Sil, Morgoth is at an appropriate level of difficulty right now. I.e. Dangerous but approachable.

[Psi]

To start with Morgoth was seen off with the charge/knockback/opportunist combo. 2/3 of that is now nerfed.

Most of his other deaths have come through cruel blow or crippling shot. I've posted elsewhere that I think there should be (max) HP scaled resistance to those effects, so that Morgoth is more-or-less invulnerable to them.

I think that would make things more challenging. Sure, he's still been killed without those things, but I think its only happened a couple of times.

[debo]

To start with Morgoth was seen off with the charge/knockback/opportunist combo. 2/3 of that is now nerfed.

Most of his other deaths have come through cruel blow or crippling shot. I've posted elsewhere that I think there should be (max) HP scaled resistance to those effects, so that Morgoth is more-or-less invulnerable to them.

I think that would make things more challenging. Sure, he's still been killed without those things, but I think its only happened a couple of times.

Fair -- it's just that half's idea of giving Morgoth a few songs makes for a really epic battle I think it would be spooky as hell if Morgoth suddenly had some new, scary behaviour that you hadn't seen in otherx uniques yet.

I also really like that Morgoth isn't immune to anything, really -- one of my pet peeves of JRPGs is that when you make it to the end boss, usually all the powers you accumulated over the course of the game are suddenly useless, because he/it has blanket immunity to everything. I'd like, for example, for there still to be a reasonably good chance that you could land 1 or 2 crippling shots in a fight with him. But that's just me

Edit: The point I was trying to make was that I'd rather see Morgoth get stronger in a "flavourful" way -- i.e. "Morgoth cries out in rage" and get buffed -- than just blocking all the neat stuff I can do

[half]

Fair -- it's just that half's idea of giving Morgoth a few songs makes for a really epic battle I think it would be spooky as hell if Morgoth suddenly had some new, scary behaviour that you hadn't seen in otherx uniques yet.

You'll no doubt be excited to know that the (only?) other enemy we were thinking of giving songs to is Gorthaur (since he memorably sings/chants some in the Lay of Leithian).

I also really like that Morgoth isn't immune to anything, really -- one of my pet peeves of JRPGs is that when you make it to the end boss, usually all the powers you accumulated over the course of the game are suddenly useless, because he/it has blanket immunity to everything.

This is why he isn't currently immune to things. I really disliked the way that so many enemies were immune to the interesting effects of confusion/sleep/slowing in Angband and mostly disliked the way that so many were immune to a lot of the elements. One big effect of this is making the gap between uniques and normal monsters bigger for mages (perhaps there is a point in this?). I agree that it doesn't feel epic. In Sil things resist an element if it makes particular flavour sense for them to resist it. If they are meant to be tough, this happens via health or armour or evasion or something that affects things more generally, not something that encourages physical damage at the expense of elemental damage.

I think his current hammer pits and earthquakes is in the right direction and feels dramatic, though Kemenraukar somewhat spoil things by having the same style of melee attack (they don't do it at range 2 like Morgoth does though).

[Philip]

[snip]
Edit: The point I was trying to make was that I'd rather see Morgoth get stronger in a "flavourful" way -- i.e. "Morgoth cries out in rage" and get buffed -- than just blocking all the neat stuff I can do

I think that your idea could work well, as long as it blocks abusive ways of killing him when he gets angry. On the other hand, songs sound pretty nice! Maybe both?

[half]

We took the fight with Fingolfin as being emblematic of Morgoth in combat, and there is a lot of dodging hammer blows that create pits in the earth there. No cave-ins, but they were on the surface...

Perhaps combining this with the Thu/Gorthaur/Sauron confrontation with Felagund and Beren is right though, allowing some songs that work at range, and which can cause problems for certain strategies.

I would like to allow some kind of Knock Back, Stun, Cruel Blow, Crippling Shot on him if possible.

Psi's idea of increasing power could work well. We currently have this as an effect when the crown is knocked off, but it could have more stages (especially as everyone needs to knock the crown off, but we don't want to kill them all). One scoring mechanism I'd toyed with was a system for marring Morgoth. Fingolfin inflicted 7 mighty wounds on Morgoth. How many can you inflict? etc. I could add rules for this, like the crown knocking off rules, with messages about the wounds you inflict (perhaps in an order from his foot up to his cheek or the like), and Morgoth gaining more resolve at each point. I already have a variable that modifies the Morgoth monster, so it would not be too hard to set up. It would also work well with the scoring. It might seem a bit odd that he gets more powerful the more you wound him though... Ideas for this are welcome, especially if easy to implement and fitting with the tone of the game. We don't want to distract people from actually stealing a Silmaril though, so this would probably just be for tie-breaking among the people with the same number of Silmarils who escaped.

[HallucinationMushroom]

You already have a precedent established for getting stronger through damage with strength in adversity for the player. It seems fair that Morgoth should have a similar response, since the player and Morgoth are the central characters.

[Psi]

Psi's idea of increasing power could work well.

Not my idea.

Personally I like killing V - be a shame if it became technically impossible.

[Scatha]

Personally I like killing V - be a shame if it became technically impossible.

I think our ideal is that it is just borderline possible to kill V.

[half]

I think our ideal is that it is just borderline possible to kill V.

Yes. That it will still remain programmed in, but shouldn't happen in any kind of normal play. So if someone succeeds it is really quite exceptional, and that people can't complain if it is too hard!

We might want to make the 'big 4' uniques harder to kill too, so killing them is an achievement worth boasting about (easier than the current killing of Morgoth by melee, but not much easier).

[debo]

Ideas for this are welcome, especially if easy to implement and fitting with the tone of the game. We don't want to distract people from actually stealing a Silmaril though, so this would probably just be for tie-breaking among the people with the same number of Silmarils who escaped.

My initial conception was that he doesn't take you seriously at first -- he's a God, after all -- and only as he grows closer to defeat does he put more effort into it. (Wasn't this the reasoning behind boosting his stats when he loses the crown in the 1.1 release notes?)

I think 7 stages is a bit much -- 2 or 3 would be fine.

I already did a bit of sourcediving to see how hard this would be, and the answer is 'not really', given the special treatment Morgoth already gets for versions with lost crown etc

If you want to match the JRPG standard progression, it should be a 3 part battle. In the 3rd stage, he should morph into a giant monster with the bodies of dozens of other monsters all mashed into one another, and you should be teleported into space for this final fight.

[half]

Not my idea.

Apologies to you and debo for getting your posts confused!

[debo]

Yes. That it will still remain programmed in, but shouldn't happen in any kind of normal play. So if someone succeeds it is really quite exceptional, and that people can't complain if it is too hard!

We might want to make the 'big 4' uniques harder to kill too, so killing them is an achievement worth boasting about (easier than the current killing of Morgoth by melee, but not much easier).

I would say that Ungoliant could use a boost. The rest of the 4 are OK, IMO. I'm scared shitless of them every game.

[debo]

I'd also like an easter egg where you can find a horn that lets you summon Tulkas, and he comes in and whoops Morgoth's butt when you blow on it in the throne room

[clouded]

No paralysation for Morgoth, thanks. There are already a lot of late uniques and enemies with entrancement. I think it may be a touch overused as is.

Perhaps uniques shouldn't be territorial, or have a diminished form. This is something that counts against Ungoliant and Glaurung. It's sort of cheap how easy it is to avoid them or fight them in a position of taking one step back and being completely safe. This sort of goes for regular enemies too, though spiders and drakes especially would be massively more dangerous without that behaviour.

I would be wary of putting too many almost unkillable things in the throne room by the way... It's already a fair bit harder for stealthless guys who can't just leave them be (I haven't done a properly stealthy throne room in 1.1, it may have equalised somewhat). I've no idea what I'd be supposed to do if Gorthaur was in the throne room and as tough to kill as Morgoth.