Sil 1.0.1

[half]

Another roguelike / angband-like keyset bug: I can't dig. I use CTRL-h to dig to the left and it says "type ? for help". It says the same thing when I use +.

The command for 'alter' in the Sil keyset is (/). In the angband-like keyset it should be (+). You are right that at the moment users of hjkl keys need to hit (/) then direction instead of Control with direction, but I didn't think this was a big issue. A bigger issue is moving the keyset around since Sil supports *4* keysets (twice as many as Angband) this means I'd have to move things to keys that aren't used in either Sil or Angband. I could probably do so, but it didn't seem obvious that this was superior.

[Psi]

I've just equipped a latern of shadows, but it still gives me 2 radius of light - though it seems to flicker a bit. Is it that bad? Not sure whether I should take curse breaking or just plough on - there is a staff that breaks curses isn't there (how deep do you find that?).

Ha! Went down the stairs and found my first staff of the game - sanctity!

[Psi]

I've just equipped a latern of shadows, but it still gives me 2 radius of light - though it seems to flicker a bit. Is it that bad? Not sure whether I should take curse breaking or just plough on - there is a staff that breaks curses isn't there (how deep do you find that?).

[debo]

This is not really important, but I almost always take Charge as my first ability. It still occasionally surprises me that I can charge monsters when I'm sneaking or otherwise Slowed. Isn't that a bit weird?

Making Charge only work at normal or faster speeds could also make Assassination a teeny smidge more useful/situational

[will_asher]

Another roguelike / angband-like keyset bug: I can't dig. I use CTRL-h to dig to the left and it says "type ? for help". It says the same thing when I use +.
You use CTRL-direction as alter grid, but you also use CTRL-direction for underlying key commands in the roguelike set, so which is it? I'm guessing this messing some things up.

I can't find anything in the pref file for 'alter grid' to fix this.

EDIT: Okay, I figured something out. I added this near the end of pref.prf:

#alter grid
A:/4
C:3:^h
A:/4
C:1:^h
A:/2
C:3:^j
A:/2
C:1:^j
A:/6
C:3:^l
A:/6
C:1:^l
#^k is destroy item
A:/8
C:3:^y
A:/8
C:1:^y

You probably won't want to use ^y to dig north when you fix this for a release version.
I think the best thing would be to reassign the underlying commands for the roguelike keyset instead of using CTRL to get the underlying command. Then you can use CTRL-direction to alter grids.

[EpicMan]

A way to solve this is to add a pair of variables to the cell struct (if there is one) for the displayed character and color. This value is what the screen would draw, cells in FOV would be checked for updates (or just re-set to what they should be) and cells out of FOV would appear the same, even if something in them changed.

You already do this for monsters (an unseen but explored cell does not change if a monster enters or leaves it) so it is not true that what you see on the screen outside of FOV is absolutely correct.

[Derakon]

Closing doors behind you is indeed sensible. This particular approach of seeing the doors open when not in line of sight is something I'd like to change, but not at the top of the list, so it may disappear at some point. I think it still works like this in V too, as it does require some changes to the fundamentals of how the map is represented: probably adding a second map for how you remember the dungeon to be, as well as the first map for how the dungeon is.

Yeah, this happens in Vanilla too. Tiles can either be known or unknown, and there's no provision for updating them that doesn't inform the player of those updates if they are known. However, the contents of a tile (that is, monsters and items) can be unknown even if the tile is known. Though IIRC if you detect items in a vault, for example, and a poltergeist wanders around picking up those items, you'll see them disappear.

[half]

I'm hardly good at Sil, but I have found one thing that helps with the corridor-trap problem -- I close most doors behind me (depending on situation). Even if the doorway is in darkness, you can "see" it open on the map, which is weird but helpful.

Closing doors behind you is indeed sensible. This particular approach of seeing the doors open when not in line of sight is something I'd like to change, but not at the top of the list, so it may disappear at some point. I think it still works like this in V too, as it does require some changes to the fundamentals of how the map is represented: probably adding a second map for how you remember the dungeon to be, as well as the first map for how the dungeon is.

Even without this trick though, it is still a good technique: it limits the flow of noise, it stops creatures like the unintelligent wolves and spiders and serpents, it also prints a message on the screen if something bashes open a nearby door.

I'd also recommend fighting near the back end of a corridor, so if something comes into the room, you can see it and choose whether to get stuck in the corridor or whether to try to get around it. This is better if an individual arrives from behind, but maybe worse if it is a group. Also, this makes it more likely for the passing monsters to notice you, so is less good if you are quite stealthy.

Being cornered really is bad though. Treat Abilities and items that help avoid it or break out of it as *very* valuable. There are actually quite a few that help!

[debo]

I'm hardly good at Sil, but I have found one thing that helps with the corridor-trap problem -- I close most doors behind me (depending on situation). Even if the doorway is in darkness, you can "see" it open on the map, which is weird but helpful.

Non-intelligent/smashing monsters won't get through the door, and even if they do, you'll have a warning that they're coming a few turns before they appear behind you, which can make all the difference. Being surrounded in Sil is _really_ bad, as you've probably already learned

[Psi]

Melee and Evasion will as you say always help, but more key may be to avoid fighting them in such a way that you can get mobbed. Leave yourself a retreat, and be prepared to use the stairs if need be. Running away from them is harder than from orcs, because they move quickly, but it is possible (and sprinting will make it easier).

In terms of actually fighting them, I think that the Spear of Boldog, or another weapon of wolf-slaying (perhaps not a battle-axe or something with a large to-hit penalty) is a good choice. Using a weapon with Wolf-slaying will also make them more likely to run away. They bite harder than earlier wolves, but it is possible (perhaps with luck/forging) to have enough armour by this point to soak up almost everything they're dealing.

Thanks for the advice. My problem seems to be that something always sneaks in the other end of the corridor I am fighting in, blocking my retreat. Maybe better armour is the key - I'd love to forge something, but forges seem pretty thin on the ground (that or I just don't find them before leaving a level!).

[Scatha]

Must admit I am loving the game - seems very nicely balanced so far. However when reaching 450 I seem to get overwhelmed by Wargs. Any particular advice for beating them, or is it just a case of more melee and more evasion?

Last game I had the Spear of Boldog so thought that would be the best approach, however my health deteriorated and with no healing I couldn't get away from them. I thought too late that they may have been susceptible to Elbereth.

Wargs are noticeably nasty for their depth. They are intelligent, so yes, Elbereth will work (how quickly/reliably may depend on your Song), but there are other ways to deal with them. I'll offer some thoughts, but other people are getting pretty good at the game these days, so perhaps one of them will share some strategies I haven't thought of.

Melee and Evasion will as you say always help, but more key may be to avoid fighting them in such a way that you can get mobbed. Leave yourself a retreat, and be prepared to use the stairs if need be. Running away from them is harder than from orcs, because they move quickly, but it is possible (and sprinting will make it easier).

In terms of actually fighting them, I think that the Spear of Boldog, or another weapon of wolf-slaying (perhaps not a battle-axe or something with a large to-hit penalty) is a good choice. Using a weapon with Wolf-slaying will also make them more likely to run away. They bite harder than earlier wolves, but it is possible (perhaps with luck/forging) to have enough armour by this point to soak up almost everything they're dealing.

I know this is kind of a stupid question, and changing things in the manner I'm suggesting would only make the game harder, and it's hard enough already, but why does protection from armor pieces stack? Unless you're being hit by a giant with a huge hammer that would kill you in one hit anyway, you're probably not going to take a hit on your head, torso, and feet simultaneously from the same attack! I know stacking armor is sort of an RPG trope, but somehow it seems worse here because it's not just an AC but actual armor dice...

You're right that a more "simulationist" system would model things in such detail. Here, it's a question of the level of abstraction. RPGs in which armour makes you harder to hit are abstracting much further than Sil, perhaps to the point where, because you're used to it, you don't notice it as an abstraction.

The idea, of course, is that the protection rating on your [-1,1d2] helmet represents the average amount of damage that the helmet will soak up from a blow. Of course that average will be distributed so that against most blows it does nothing, whereas when hit on the head it helps a lot more than [1d2]'s worth. Now you could have a system with different protection values for each location, and a randomised chance of hitting each location. Such systems exist, and we could have gone with something similar for Sil. However, the gameplay it would create would actually be very similar to the current one (a little different in that it would particularly encourage you to cover every slot), while adding a lot of complexity.

Sil already has a lot of complexity which (we hope!) leads to interesting decisions or cool moments. We therefore want to limit adding in extra complexity in cases where it doesn't add these things to the game, and I think that this is one of those.

Edit: I crossed with half here, so there's some overlap in the content, but I think there are enough different points to leave this!

[half]

I guess the only argument against that is [gameplay >>> realism], which is likely what half would use here.

That is pretty much right. It is an abstraction. The more simulationist way to do it would be to have armour for different body parts, and rules about which body part you hit, then subtract the protection for that part's armour. The problem with this is that it is not compatible with hitpoints. Either people can die from a hit to the hand (let us suppose that is the only weak spot) or you need rules for losing a hand etc.

The most natural way to do it with a protection system would be to ignore the separation of armour into different slots and just say mail, leather, robes or something like that to encompass the whole ensemble. However, I like the different slots approach of roguelikes (and many CRPGs but interestingly not pen and paper ones).

Two more points: I don't think that having protection rather than just a nebulous defence value makes much difference here. Also, there are more abstract things than this in Sil!

[Narvius]

I guess the only argument against that is [gameplay >>> realism], which is likely what half would use here.

[ekolis]

I know this is kind of a stupid question, and changing things in the manner I'm suggesting would only make the game harder, and it's hard enough already, but why does protection from armor pieces stack? Unless you're being hit by a giant with a huge hammer that would kill you in one hit anyway, you're probably not going to take a hit on your head, torso, and feet simultaneously from the same attack! I know stacking armor is sort of an RPG trope, but somehow it seems worse here because it's not just an AC but actual armor dice...

[Psi]

Must admit I am loving the game - seems very nicely balanced so far. However when reaching 450 I seem to get overwhelmed by Wargs. Any particular advice for beating them, or is it just a case of more melee and more evasion?

Last game I had the Spear of Boldog so thought that would be the best approach, however my health deteriorated and with no healing I couldn't get away from them. I thought too late that they may have been susceptible to Elbereth.

One bug - attempting to 'u'se a chest on the floor (-) tells you that you need to put it down first!

I've also had a few crashes in Win XP - usually at the end of char creation, but once a few turns into the game.