Sil

[jujuben]

Maybe give it two different mechanisms. For unaware enemies, stealth vs. perception + d10 to swap without getting hit or alerting (high success), alert but not get hit (normal success), alert and get hit (marginal success) or fail the stealth check, alert, and move to the second mechanism.

For alert enemies, or enemies on which you failed the stealth check, move to opposed evasion +d10 vs evasion +d10. If you succeed, swap but get hit, if you fail, waste the turn.

This would make it viable for stealth dabblers, but significantly more powerful for specialists. Even heavy armored builds typically have enough evasion by the midgame to make this useful on most enemies, and cats and vamps and their ilk *should* be harder to get away from.

[Scatha]

Maybe give it two different mechanisms. For unaware enemies, stealth vs. perception + d10 to swap without getting hit or alerting (high success), alert but not get hit (normal success), alert and get hit (marginal success) or fail the stealth check, alert, and move to the second mechanism.

For alert enemies, or enemies on which you failed the stealth check, move to opposed evasion +d10 vs evasion +d10. If you succeed, swap but get hit, if you fail, waste the turn.

This is a reasonable simulationist mechanic, but it fails simplicity checks (and feels a bit ad hoc rather than elegant). We don't want to make mechanics unnecessarily complex (and some of the complexity here is unnecessary).

I think the main advantage of an opposed Evasion roll is that there wouldn't be any need to add bonuses or penalties for switching with an enemy who was unaware, or who you couldn't see, etc., as they'd come naturally as they are already applied to your evasion. It's still more complicated than just not letting you switch with enemies you can't see, so there's a question about whether the gain is worth it.

[HallucinationMushroom]

What is happening during exchange places, descriptively? As a player, all I know is that we swap places... but what am I suppose to imagine happening? It seems moving to the square behind the target, while leaving the target in place, would make more sense. Like, you slipped or nimbly got by it. What I imagine is more of a strength thing, like a grab and pull and shifting of feet, since not only are you moving to a desired spot, but you are also making a creature move to where you were. My 2 cents... I can't weigh in on math or code, I have -5 grace in those.

[Derakon]

If the monster is aware of you, then you could think of it as like an aikido thing -- you use the monster's own momentum towards you (when it moves to attack, say) to pull it further in while moving yourself back. That wouldn't require much strength.

[Narvius]

Indeed it wouldn't. But I think specifying how exactly the swap takes place makes no sense, because you can easily aikido your way past a dude trying to punch, or even slash you, but the explanation falls apart when you fight bats for example.

[Scatha]

There is indeed a certain amount of deliberate vagueness there (not the only place in the game) -- it's mechanically rather than descriptively clean.

Personally I favour the "slipping past" interpretation. This makes some sense if you think of position as approximate, and relative position as more important, but it's better not examined too closely. I'm not sure how half thinks of it.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Yeah, good point about bats, and other monsters negating it being a dextrous/strength martial arts thing. I like my original idea that maybe a checkers-jump-move should be what exchange places does... sort of maybe a tuck and roll or nimble leap or something that gets you past the monster, without the tricky part of having to worry about how you got that monster to where you started the procedure, of course, requiring an empty space to land in. Sort of like Charge in Heng/Entro/Cheng, but without the attack at the front.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Oops, I posted before seeing Scatha's post. After reading that and pondering, I can see how swapping places is approximating what is stealthily-slipping-past the best it can in the given game universe. I think I have a disconnect from the intent of the ability since I've never played a stealth character.

[WaveMotion]

If Exchange Places is supposed to simulate stealthily slipping past an enemy, does it make sense for it to work on creatures that are aware of you? Slipping past an enemy that can fully see what you are doing feels too much like a combat maneuver. It would probably be a huge nerf to actually make it work only on unwary creatures, though.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I'd sure never be able to take it again. The whole level wakes up when my creaky armor clangs down the stairs.

[Patashu]

I thought of a way to make the throne room less spoily. DCSS style 'how close you came to beating the roll' messages*.

You pry the Silmaril with your <weapon>...
'The Silmaril didn't even budge...'
'The Silmaril barely budged..'
'The Silmaril shifts for a moment.'
'The Silmaril shifts a lot!'
'The Silmaril almost comes out!!'
'The Silmaril comes free!!!'

(I would rather have the 'combat roll' for silmaril prising outright displayed, but this would be second best)

*Should totally be used for every roll in the game, btw

If Exchange Places is supposed to simulate stealthily slipping past an enemy, does it make sense for it to work on creatures that are aware of you? Slipping past an enemy that can fully see what you are doing feels too much like a combat maneuver. It would probably be a huge nerf to actually make it work only on unwary creatures, though.

Haha, I'd never take exchange places again A huge nerf indeed!

IMHO, good (single player) game design isn't to nerf good choices into oblivion, but raise bad choices into the limelight. Obviously if something is broken it's broken, but it's nice to not feel punished for finding awesome combos and mechanics.

[half]

(I would rather have the 'combat roll' for silmaril prising outright displayed, but this would be second best)

*Should totally be used for every roll in the game, btw

Well... we already completely display the combat rolls for each silmaril and for every combat roll in the game in the combat rolls window. This is more than most roguelikes I think. One can't display *all* skill checks as this would give away when you walk near a secret door etc. One could display more of them, but I'm not sure how much that is needed. Note that many don't even have messages (e.g. each turn the Song of Elbereth tries to cause fear in all nearby monsters, but you only hear about it when their fear state changes.

IMHO, good (single player) game design isn't to nerf good choices into oblivion, but raise bad choices into the limelight. Obviously if something is broken it's broken, but it's nice to not feel punished for finding awesome combos and mechanics.

We do try to do this, but there is often little choice. If you have tens (hundreds? thousands?) of things in the game, then pulling all the others up each instead of taking one down is not feasible. We do try to leave things a while before nerfing them though, to make sure it is needed. We are also prepared to leave things as a bit overpowered if they are very fun, or good gameplay. For instance we think Charge is overpowered, but haven't yet thought of an elegant way to tone it down to the right power level.

[Patashu]

Well... we already completely display the combat rolls for each silmaril

Oh, really? I didn't even think to look there... (And you wouldn't see it if the window was off/you were playing in console mode, right?)

[Nomad]

Re: the chest-opening bug from a few pages back, I've found that when Ctrl+Dir gives a "You strike, but there is nothing there" error, standing on top of the chest and using Ctrl+5 still works fine to disarm it.

[T-Mick]

Is it possible for you health to be lower than the minimum protection your armor provides, making you effectively invincible?

For instance, if I were to drain my Con to an exceedingly low number, then wear a ton of protection, would the armor block out all the damage?

Maybe I'm not fully understanding how protection works, but I have to ask.