Overall 3.5

[Malak Darkhunter]

That's a labyrinth level.

Okay I mistook it for a vault, never encountered one before, I have seen cave levels before and what I thought where labyrinth levels but never one that looked like a vault.

[AnonymousHero]

Okay I mistook it for a vault, never encountered one before, I have seen cave levels before and what I thought where labyrinth levels but never one that looked like a vault.

It's just the game UI being a bit arcane: To prevent the player moving off the level, all levels are automatically surrounded by "permanent wall" tiles which are incidentally exactly the same as those surrounding a vault. That combined with labyrinth levels having boosted item counts and always being small and you get something that looks sort of like a vault.

I wonder if it would make sense to remove the "level always surrounded by permanent wall" and instead let the player tunnel through for a sort of Alter Reality type effect... (without the ability to go back).

[Spacebux]

Moving GVs to a new level.

Ok, first in file DisconnectedGV2.jpg, one can see what a normal GV looks like today in the current 3.5 code. Sometimes digging is required to get to the entrance.

Second, my proposal, would change the level to look like DisconnectedGV3.jpg. Where, instead of a GV in the level, a '>' staircase has been put in its place. I guess it is hard to see... but it is there.

Third, upon descending that special staircase, the player is then placed in a new special vault level, very similar to a labyrinth level. As in DisconnectedGV4.jpg.

And, for those that say, "well, we cannot predict or forecast what we will find behind that staircase!" I say, Phooey, I just descended with a new player that has very little armor to 750' straight into a nest of beetles and carrion crawlers... a venerable Death Trap to any unexperienced player! I only escaped barely, knowing the carrion crawlers can paralyze ...! Descending ANY staircase in Angband is perilous. Sure, I could have ascended right away... that was also an option. See NarrowEscape_NormalLevel.jpg.

Finally, upon leaving the special Vault level, the player is placed back in a new dungeon at the same level, as if Alter Reality had been cast.

[Derakon]

And, finally, for those that say, "well, we cannot predict or forecast what we will find behind that staircase!" I say, Phooey, I just descended with a new player that has very little armor to 750' straight into a nest of beetles and carrion crawlers... a venerable Death Trap to any unexperienced player! I only escaped barely, knowing the carrion crawlers can paralyze ...! Descending ANY staircase in Angband is perilous. Sure, I could have ascended right away... that was also an option. See NarrowEscape_NormalLevel.jpg.

Many players play with disconnected stairs. In the situation you encountered, they could still have teleported away to another part of the level and been unlikely to find a situation of similar lethality, because the level is not especially densely-packed with threats. Vaults are extremely densely-packed with threats. If teleportation can only land you in another part of the vault, then it's no longer a valid escape. Teleport Other has similar caveats -- it's not very useful on a small level, because the threat you teleported away will soon be right back at your throat.

That leaves the more "permanent" escapes, like Teleport Level and Destruction. Problem being, in clearing most vaults, you need the "less-permanent" escapes. If you had to TL or Destruct at the first point when, in current play, you would TO or Teleport, then most vaults would get, at best, 25% cleared before the player had to bail.

Let me make it clear that I don't think these are unsolvable problems. However, you can't only implement your current proposal and expect it to work out. There need to be additional, and significant, other changes to make it more feasible to take on a vault without recourse to "permanent" escapes. And these would have ramifications for non-vault play as well. Ultimately I suspect that the game you'd end up would look like Angband, but it would play very differently.

[Spacebux]

Let me make it clear that I don't think these are unsolvable problems. However, you can't only implement your current proposal and expect it to work out. There need to be additional, and significant, other changes to make it more feasible to take on a vault without recourse to "permanent" escapes. And these would have ramifications for non-vault play as well. Ultimately I suspect that the game you'd end up would look like Angband, but it would play very differently.

Quite right. And, I also mentioned these vaults would need play testing and most likely revising to make them playable. The numbers and placements of OoD mobs, e.g., where traps are located, .. heck, maybe even restricting the use of permanent walls would need to be looked at.

But, if it can work for labyrinth levels, why not do the same for Greater Vaults and some of the medium Vaults in vaults.txt?

[Derakon]

But, if it can work for labyrinth levels, why not do the same for Greater Vaults and some of the medium Vaults in vaults.txt?

Monster density, really. That, and labyrinths can put monsters fairly "far away" even if the straight-line distance is short, because the path from point A to point B can be quite circuitous. When you fight monsters in a labyrinth, you can thus do a decent job of controlling how many monsters you face at a time, and if there's one you can't cope with, you can teleport it away (or teleport yourself) and be reasonably assured that you can rest up and keep exploring without immediately running into it again.

Even then, a single wallwalker or wall-eater monster that you can't handle can be cause to bail on a labyrinth level. Maeglin, Black Reavers, and Dreads are the top potential problems that leap to mind, but depending on how deep you are, even something like a Nether Wraith could be a major problem.

[Estie]

I am sorry if I was unclear: I understood your proposed changes. What I fail to see is how they are an improvement/differenece to embedded vaults.
Let me try it this way: would a combination of further nerfing teleport other and allowing teleportation effects to land the subject inside a vault area achieve something similar to what you are trying to do ? If not, what do you gain from vaults being their own level besides harder to accomplish teleportation effects ?

[Spacebux]

I am sorry if I was unclear: I understood your proposed changes. What I fail to see is how they are an improvement/differenece to embedded vaults.
Let me try it this way: would a combination of further nerfing teleport other and allowing teleportation effects to land the subject inside a vault area achieve something similar to what you are trying to do ? If not, what do you gain from vaults being their own level besides harder to accomplish teleportation effects ?

The first main point would be to restrict use of 'level feeling' scumming; anything in a vault separated from the main level would not affect level feeling, except for perhaps one may sense a 'special door' is somewhere to be found.

This way mobs / stuff inside a Vault would not impact whatever else is on the floor in the main dungeon. Good / bad, I think its a way to quell arguments for/against 'level feelings' being too pertinent to the game.

The other main point is to increase the intensity of vaults... by not being able to really predict what's in a vault until you are inside it, and by permitting the vault designer(s) to create ever larger, more complicated vaults, I believe the excitement of going through the 'special doors' would only increase. Right now players with enlightenment potions / spells or mapping can have a huge advantage over those without. Enlightened players can sense what items are in their, compare to what mobs might be in there, and judge whether to enter or not. Is that really the intent behind Vault creation or having Vaults? I really don't think so.

Finally, a rather weak point, is to assist the normal dungeon level builders to create levels that are free from constraints when a Medium or Greater Vault needs to be inserted. Not a huge concern, but it would simplify dungeon create code a fair amount.

[Estie]

I get the impression that you are behind the times somewhat. Level feelings can be toggled on/off in the birth option to your desire; I have them on mostly because in the early game when the dungeon is still lit, you sometimes get the item part on entering the level. While very rarely a message indicates a game changing item, most of the time its just an ood base ("lol a mithril plate mail on level 5"). Past that point, I completely ignore them and dont see how level scumming for messages can be a winning strategy.

As for bigger and more interesting vaults, the trend goes very much towards smaller and more interesting vaults. Almost all of the huge half-level sized monsters are in the "dont bother with" class for me and I suspect many others.
An excellent new addition is the pacman vault (by Buzzkill I believe).

I dont know if I find detecting a purple staircase more exciting than detecting a weird monster configuration, which might be a good vault, a bad vault or just an odd circumstance.
Its hard to beat my favourite screenshot: http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=1432

[Timo Pietilä]

OK, if I have time today, I will try to put together a series of screen shots simulating what I am trying to propose.

What are your plans for normal dungeon with this proposed change? How are you planning to keep them interesting?

[Spacebux]

What are your plans for normal dungeon with this proposed change? How are you planning to keep them interesting?

I think the normal dungeons are vastly more interesting than they used to be---mob pits of various sizes, types; a wider variety of special, shaped rooms; and the normal <I>minor</I> vaults still remain (checkboard, et. al.).

I recall the earlier days, when wands of wall creation were still around, Ancient Multihued Ds were something to be feared, 'Time' attacks didn't exist, some items were heavily cursed, and spikes still jammed doors..

Some things I like, some things I don't particularly care for. I love that mobs now 'fidget with locks' and then bang on them. I find that hilarious. I still don't know how alchemist's gloves ever got into the game, but its a minor issue to me (and, if I wanted, I could go edit object.txt at any time... can't put the spikes back in as easily, though, 'j' doesn't work anymore.. gotta recompile if I want that). I never did understand how a 'Forest' troll ever got into the dungeons.

I think the normal dungeon levels are quite good, and interesting now. Even if they only ever contained minor vaults.

I would love to see more creativity put into effects. (I'm repeating a lot of what I wrote years ago...)

Ground clutter
Perhaps adding in ground clutter that obscures vision or may more likely hide objects beneath. (I, for one, miss the broken shards / pottery.) What if you had a pottery room, for example, where the player could not really detect what was IN those jars until 'I'nspecting them, 'B'reaking them open, or 'L'ooking into them somehow? Right now we have chests '~' that are almost always trapped. Pottery jars may be another container type to add.

I think it would add flavor to the normal dungeons if one came across a corpse every now-and-then. In particular, corpses of @-players past. 'I'nspecting a corpse may reveal something, it may not. If the game can remember 'ancestors' being mauled by a certain mob, why not place a @-corpse reminder at the same depth?

Cave-ins
In versions past, sometimes one would come across sections of the dungeon that had been 'nuked' by earthquakes. I recall hating those levels as they were darned hard to traverse, light-up, or know what might be coming through all the cracks. I think a lesser version of that would be an interesting addition to dungeon generation... like 1~3% of the time, come across a room or area with minor to major amounts of damage. But no more than 2 such areas in a given dungeon .. and not nearly as extensively damaged as in versions prior.

(See CaveInSample.png for an artist's rendition of what a minor cave-in may look like.)

Forecasting
Give players an idea of what may be coming, or what may lay ahead with subtle clues such as - "you hear human voices mumbling to the southwest" when a pack of 'p' priests or mages or scouts may be approaching (or just awake / aware), but not thieves---they move silently; "a cool breeze blows in from the north" if a cold vortex is coming closer; "something draws your attention to the west" if an invisible creature moves and the player makes a save to notice something..; "howls abound from the north" if/when hounds 'Z' are on the prowl; "such a stench in the air to the east" when a rotting Q or molds are growing; "a rumbling seems to be coming from the wall to the east" if a Xorn is approaching. Subtle clues that could make the game more interesting without precisely giving away too much information, I think, would be great. Code-wise, maybe not so great.

Spell/Skill scrolls
For mages (and priests perhaps), increase the numbers / types of spells. I would love a spell-scroll system where there were say 100+ potential spells in a game. Some would be guaranteed to be in the game. Others would be found only after an exhaustive search in the dungeon itself. A scroll would have unique properties to it:
Spell effect, mana cost, failure %, Spell level, etc.

Each time a mage (or spell caster) found a new scroll she/he/it would first - ID it, to know the particulars of the spell, then choose to 'learn' it and add it to her/his/its spellbook. Each spellbook could hold up to, say, 8 spells. Spellbooks could come in two types, destroyable and non-destroyable (like the dark red/green books in the current code). A player would still be limited to learning XX number of spells per game, however, so exactly which spells she/he/it ought to learn should be properly managed.

Once you have a spell-scroll system in place, boooom(!), you have so much more potential for creativity in the game. Maybe a spell of Dark-bolt (8d8) for 6 MPs; a Ventriloquism spell to draw mobs off to another point in the dungeon (for those that fail and are not aware & in L.o.S.); Time-, water-, Mana-shield(s) to lessen mana bolt attacks (I know.. no one wants enable defense of the indefensible... <I>sigh</I>); a See Invis spell; maybe a Dancing Lights spell that lights up the dungeon in a circular fashion with a radius of 10-12, but also lights up invisible mobs, depending on caster level; and so on.

One might say that is giving waaaay too much power to the mage classes. Nope... do the same for thieves & warriors; instead give them skill-scrolls. Yet, once studied and 'learnt', those skills stay with the player and the scroll itself mystically disappears into thin air. Warriors could potentially find a skill scroll to 'parry' or 'dodge' certain melee attacks, reducing hits. A more powerful skill scroll may contain 'fencing' abilities to increase critical hit %s or possibly lower the weight limits needed to attain bonus swings / round.

Permit theives to be thieves - lay traps for mobs, backstab sleeping mobs for bonus multiplier damage, become practically invisible to mobs by 'sneak'ing. There may not be as skills potentially as spells, per se, but still, learning how to 'dig a trap pit' for a thief would be immensely powerful in stopping / slowing a mob-chase---mobs would either fall in & take damage (for failed saves), stop (for those that did), and take turns trying to repair / fix / disarm the trap pit. And, yes, I think thieves / warrior types ought to be permitted to 'j'am a door with spikes.


This will in-turn make the game more interesting without necessarily unbalancing the power-balance in favor of the player. The more options / effects in the game, the more interesting. Conversely, yes, its a code-nightmare to maintain all the changes. I do think, though, the spell casting system needs to be over-hauled. Its soooo inter-woven into so many places in the code, its nearly impossible to rip it out and over-haul it without breaking something. But, I digress, that has little to do with making dungeons interesting.

\\ Adding in effects (subtle clues), ground clutter, pottery, player-traps, et. al., will add to normal dungeon attractiveness.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I've seen alot of this stuff in old Angband and some variants, you have a lot of cool ideas, one thing you have to be careful of is the ground clutter, done right it can be interesting, if you have to much though you end up with Unangband and it's got so much stuff it's just really,really, confusing.

[Spacebux]

I've seen alot of this stuff in old Angband and some variants, you have a lot of cool ideas, one thing you have to be careful of is the ground clutter, done right it can be interesting, if you have to much though you end up with Unangband and it's got so much stuff it's just really,really, confusing.

Right. And in previous versions of vanilla, there were way too many drops, e.g. I'm not interested in seeing so much clutter that it takes 5-hours to clear 1/4th of a level.

Timo asked what I would suggest to make the dungeons more interesting. Adding back in the shards of pottery, pottery as containers, having a corpse here or there, fallen rock/roof & cave-ins, .. those are my suggestions to make the game more authentic feeling in the dungeon. The other ideas about effects and game play would (in my opinion) increase the thrill of playing the game---from hidden Vaults (off level), to spell-scrolls, to hints of fore-warning.

I'm not a coder, nor do I play one on t.v. I do understand, though, a lot of the work & effort required not only to revamp the code to make these things possible, but to implement them in a specific way that does not break the game in some manner.

[wobbly]

Permit theives to be thieves - lay traps for mobs, backstab sleeping mobs for bonus multiplier damage, become practically invisible to mobs by 'sneak'ing. There may not be as skills potentially as spells, per se, but still, learning how to 'dig a trap pit' for a thief would be immensely powerful in stopping / slowing a mob-chase---mobs would either fall in & take damage (for failed saves), stop (for those that did), and take turns trying to repair / fix / disarm the trap pit. And, yes, I think thieves / warrior types ought to be permitted to 'j'am a door with spikes.

I've played many of the variants that have this stuff (O, Sang, Poscheng etc.) & it is definitely something I miss when playing Vanilla. Current Vanilla rogues are what? A warrior that can cast & has high stealth? They feel that way to me. The minus side is trap setting can become more hassle then fun, but if it's unique to the rogue (& probably leave the classical rogue in, for those who like it) then you could chose to play that particular game or pick another class.

Stealth too in vanilla feels horrible. After Sil that does this very well, other variants stealth mechanic just seem very poor. I doubt the Sil mechanic is directly translatable but maybe something else? I don't know, I have no good suggestion on the how for the moment, just expressing an opinion.

[Derakon]

Current Vanilla rogues are what? A warrior that can cast & has high stealth?

Pretty much, yep. You have three "pure" classes in the Warrior, Priest, and Mage, and then three hybrid classes in the Rogue, Paladin, and Ranger, with the Ranger also serving as the ranged-combat expert and the Rogue also serving as the stealthy character.

You can roughly rank the classes as follows:

Melee: Warrior > Paladin, Rogue > Ranger > Priest, Mage
Casting: Mage, Priest > Ranger > Paladin, Rogue
Shooting: Ranger >> Rogue, Warrior > Paladin, Priest, Mage
Stealth: Rogue >> Ranger > Mage, Priest > Paladin, Warrior
Hitpoints: Warrior > Rogue, Paladin > Ranger > Priest > Mage