Overall 3.5

[Spacebux]

< gv >

I'm going to hate myself for mentioning this later, because it will essentially make the game much, much harder. To the point that many of the GVs will have to be revamped.

But, here it goes.

To make vaults, special vaults (everything listed in vault.txt) that much harder & more appealing to the experienced player, make them enter-able & exit-able only via special stairs. (Keep the '>' & '<' symbols, but make them a special color '>' & '<' for example.)

In a level where a special vault from vault.txt is to be generated, rather than include that vault in the drawing of the level, place, instead, that magical doorway leading into the vault. Do NOT render the vault in the level mapping.

When a player '@' descends into a magical doorway, place them at a specified starting point inside the vault. The only way OUT of a vault is via a magical staircase elsewhere in the vault (perhaps the starting point, up to the vault designer) OR via Recall / Telep Level / Deep Descent / Alter Reality spells.

Note: entering a Vault's magic doorway essentially leaves the prior level, though Max Depth does not change. Leaving a Vault also does not modify Max Depth, but one leaves a Vault into a new dungeon (as if Alter Reality had been cast).

In this way, Vaults would become labyrinth levels with defined dimensions. Phase door would do little to rescue a wayward @ in trouble. This way, Vaults do NOT reveal their dimensions (or contents) prior to stepping into them---the player only sees the '>' on the main dungeon level. The player has no idea what horrors lie behind that > symbol.

A lot of rework & play testing would need to be done, otherwise, I have a feeling a great number of those Vaults would indeed be death traps for even the most experienced players.

This, however, makes level feelings practically irrelevant unless something dramatic is already on that level. A player would only know of a Vault door if s/he comes across one... the contents of which are completely unknowable until stepping through that door.

Perhaps to make it slightly easier on the player a Vault's level could be forewarned with different colors of '>>>>>'.

Like I said---I'm gonna hate myself later for suggesting this, but I think that would be one way to both solve issues with level feelings & trying to draw dungeons around Vaults in general.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I'm going to hate myself for mentioning this later, because it will essentially make the game much, much harder. To the point that many of the GVs will have to be revamped.

But, here it goes.

To make vaults, special vaults (everything listed in vault.txt) that much harder & more appealing to the experienced player, make them enter-able & exit-able only via special stairs. (Keep the '>' & '<' symbols, but make them a special color '>' & '<' for example.)

In a level where a special vault from vault.txt is to be generated, rather than include that vault in the drawing of the level, place, instead, that magical doorway leading into the vault. Do NOT render the vault in the level mapping.

When a player '@' descends into a magical doorway, place them at a specified starting point inside the vault. The only way OUT of a vault is via a magical staircase elsewhere in the vault (perhaps the starting point, up to the vault designer) OR via Recall / Telep Level / Deep Descent / Alter Reality spells.

Note: entering a Vault's magic doorway essentially leaves the prior level, though Max Depth does not change. Leaving a Vault also does not modify Max Depth, but one leaves a Vault into a new dungeon (as if Alter Reality had been cast).

In this way, Vaults would become labyrinth levels with defined dimensions. Phase door would do little to rescue a wayward @ in trouble. This way, Vaults do NOT reveal their dimensions (or contents) prior to stepping into them---the player only sees the '>' on the main dungeon level. The player has no idea what horrors lie behind that > symbol.

A lot of rework & play testing would need to be done, otherwise, I have a feeling a great number of those Vaults would indeed be death traps for even the most experienced players.

This, however, makes level feelings practically irrelevant unless something dramatic is already on that level. A player would only know of a Vault door if s/he comes across one... the contents of which are completely unknowable until stepping through that door.

Perhaps to make it slightly easier on the player a Vault's level could be forewarned with different colors of '>>>>>'.

Like I said---I'm gonna hate myself later for suggesting this, but I think that would be one way to both solve issues with level feelings & trying to draw dungeons around Vaults in general.

I think that is a very interesting idea, very fun, but at the same time if the wrong uniques are in the vault it could also be pure hell...but I for one like your idea.

Sangband has something similar to this called "scrolls of questing" you read a scroll and you are teleported to a themed level, usually very difficult with lots of uniques, powerful ego items, and artifacts are generated, it is a "special feeling" type level, I have always loved this about that game.

If this could potentialy make the game more interesting and more fun then I'm all for it.

[Estie]

And why would anyone want to enter that vault ?
Angband is about estimating risk/reward ratio and only doing things with a high ratio. In the current vault zoo there are some that I never touch simply because they are too dangerous for the reward they offer. Your proposed vaults would just make that list longer.

[Spacebux]

&lt; gv &gt;

And why would anyone want to enter that vault ?
Angband is about estimating risk/reward ratio and only doing things with a high ratio. In the current vault zoo there are some that I never touch simply because they are too dangerous for the reward they offer. Your proposed vaults would just make that list longer.

Well, that's just it. Typically better treasure lies in wait in vaults. The higher the risk, the higher the reward.

Like I stated, some of the current vaults would have to be reworked considerably. Many of them would be death traps.

Caps could be tighter on O.o.D. mobs and mob counts. Certain 'safe' zones could be constructed for the player to seek out. 'Hellpit', for example, is hard enough in vanilla now. I seriously doubt that would translate well into a Vault-level without reworking the walls / zoning / mob counts.

We would still have the regular vaults, and maybe the Disguised Checkerboard, Hallway, and Diagonal vaults, e.g., could stay as is in the current form, as part of the dungeon. The Medium Vaults & Greater Vaults, I think would benefit most from being separated out into their own levels.

[Estie]

I think the reason checkerboards are so popular isnt because of their high risk/reward ratio - it isnt that good - but mostly because the risk can readily be estimated. In the next cell theres the Phoenix. If I open it, he can use his move to fry me, if I manage to get a hokeystick, I have a 95% chance to safely -to him away etc.

Many of the big sized vaults have less nasties and easier ways to get rid of them even if you cant fight them head on, but it involves a long slog of fighting where many things can go wrong and chances are you end up stuck and have to abandon the whole attempt without getting at any treasure.

Some of your proposed changes are directed at disguising the risk. I question wether this is a good idea. This will make them very unpopular and high on the "avoid" ranking, and the player is going to wait till something he can gauge comes along and not blindly blunder into deadly situations.

[Spacebux]

I think the reason checkerboards are so popular isnt because of their high risk/reward ratio - it isnt that good - but mostly because the risk can readily be estimated. In the next cell theres the Phoenix. If I open it, he can use his move to fry me, if I manage to get a hokeystick, I have a 95% chance to safely -to him away etc.

Many of the big sized vaults have less nasties and easier ways to get rid of them even if you cant fight them head on, but it involves a long slog of fighting where many things can go wrong and chances are you end up stuck and have to abandon the whole attempt without getting at any treasure.

Some of your proposed changes are directed at disguising the risk. I question wether this is a good idea. This will make them very unpopular and high on the "avoid" ranking, and the player is going to wait till something he can gauge comes along and not blindly blunder into deadly situations.

Do you enjoy the labyrinth levels? GV-levels would be very similar in nature to these, but specific in their geometry. Stepping into a new level, you always have the first move, the initiative.. so its not wholly unfair to the player. Also, as I mentioned, some play testing would be needed to make sure all the Vault-levels would be sufficiently playable.

The fear of the unknown for each time you descend (or ascend) into a new level... is the same.

[Estie]

Do you enjoy the labyrinth levels? GV-levels would be very similar in nature to these, but specific in their geometry. Stepping into a new level, you always have the first move, the initiative.. so its not wholly unfair to the player. Also, as I mentioned, some play testing would be needed to make sure all the Vault-levels would be sufficiently playable.

The fear of the unknown for each time you descend (or ascend) into a new level...

Personally, no I dont particularly enjoy the labyrith levels, I prefer the basic ones, but thats besides the question.

I dont know if you have ever watched the borg play ? If you watch his behaviour, he walks in star shaped pattern to and from the safe staircase.
Now I can only speak for myself, but I am sure much of what I say will be similar to others who have played the game for a long time:

When I descend to a new level and dont have connected stairs and, the _only_ objective is to reach the next staircase. Once I am there, if nothing life threatening is around the corner, I start thinking about treasures and vaults on the level and explore depending on perceived danger level; going 3 squares to reach a tempting item on the floor might already be considered too dangerous.
This is assuming I am diving to some degree; in Ironman mode, I am typically much stronger in relation to my surroundings, so exploring isnt as dangerous.

My point is that by diving fast enough, you can already raise the danger level to "ridiculous" or anything inbetween and the treasure level as well, a successful dive gets you kitted in no time. The only thing your special vault changes is a "guaranteed no staircase in reach", instead of a "possibly no staircase in reach". All you need is see invisible, decent stealth and a couple of deep descent scrolls to fully experience the fear of the unknown and find rings of speed lying on the ground.

As for the geometry, ToME2 has "special levels" that have fixed layout, some fixed monsters in place and change the rules (no banishment/teleport etc). They are cleverly designed to challenge the player and have unique rewards not found elsewhere. Are they fun ? Maybe, for the first 2-3 times, but no longer for me. They severly lack replay value which is imo the greatest asset of roguelikes in general and Angband in particular.
I suspect, when designing vaults, it would be wise to focus on the problem of "how do I reach the entrance" part instead of the "how do I clear a vault of shape X once inside" part for this reason.

All this said, by no means let my negative judgement impede your creativity. Maybe I am all wrong and your vaults turn out to be great fun.

[Timo Pietilä]

You're not, because chaos resistance doesn't block 2/3rds of the damage. I couldn't figure out the exact range but it looks like chaos resistance blocks X / 6ths of damage, where X can be as low as 1 and as high as something(5?).

6/12 - 6/7. Something between those two. (6/1d6+6)

For damage cap 500 half is 250 (obviously) 6/7 is 428.

Nether, Shard and Disintegration have this same calc, nether cap is 550, other three have 500.

All high-resistances are unreliable for damage reduction and main reason to have them is to eliminate the side-effect. For example you don't get blinded by darkness breath with darkness resist.

[Derakon]

6/12 - 6/7. Something between those two. (6/1d6+6)

To be clear, this means you take between half normal damage, and 6/7ths normal damage. Not that damage can be reduced by up to 6/7ths (i.e. only take 1/7th normal damage).

This entire system is dumb and should be replaced by a flat damage reduction.

[Malak Darkhunter]

One thing that i do love about current angband is the ability to modify the game to your hearts desire, sometimes i find that more fun than playing.

[Spacebux]

One thing that i do love about current angband is the ability to modify the game to your hearts desire, sometimes i find that more fun than playing.

Very true.

[Spacebux]

Personally, no I dont particularly enjoy the labyrith levels, I prefer the basic ones, but thats besides the question.

Ok. Fair & honest answer.

I dont know if you have ever watched the borg play ? If you watch his behaviour, he walks in star shaped pattern to and from the safe staircase.
Now I can only speak for myself, but I am sure much of what I say will be similar to others who have played the game for a long time:

I've not seen a borg play, no. I'm not into watching a computer play the game for me. I'd rather play myself.

My point is that by diving fast enough, you can already raise the danger level to "ridiculous" or anything inbetween and the treasure level as well, a successful dive gets you kitted in no time. The only thing your special vault changes is a "guaranteed no staircase in reach", instead of a "possibly no staircase in reach". All you need is see invisible, decent stealth and a couple of deep descent scrolls to fully experience the fear of the unknown and find rings of speed lying on the ground.

I think by separating the Vaults from the main dungeon, it will eliminate some of the rather extraordinary lengths some players go to dive deep & fast to scrounge up great gear well before they reach character level 2. That's not really what this is intended to do.

As is, a lot of current Vault Design is built around trying to make the vault challenging within the constructs of a vault being in a dungeon. If the Vaults were separated, like the Labyrinth levels, Vault Design would take a new direction. Vault Designers would know player choices would be more limited in when / how to enter and maneuver around a Vault. In some ways, this will make Vault Design easier, in others, it will make it more difficult.

As for the geometry, ToME2 has "special levels" that have fixed layout, some fixed monsters in place and change the rules (no banishment/teleport etc). They are cleverly designed to challenge the player and have unique rewards not found elsewhere. Are they fun ? Maybe, for the first 2-3 times, but no longer for me. They severly lack replay value which is imo the greatest asset of roguelikes in general and Angband in particular.
I suspect, when designing vaults, it would be wise to focus on the problem of "how do I reach the entrance" part instead of the "how do I clear a vault of shape X once inside" part for this reason.

All this said, by no means let my negative judgement impede your creativity. Maybe I am all wrong and your vaults turn out to be great fun.

No, I've not played ToME2, so I'm happy to hear the feedback. In my proposal, those spells / scrolls would all still work. Simply, rather than have a Vault being a lump of permanent wall inside a dungeon level, the permanent walls would instead constitute the entire 'Vault level' one enters or exits from... on the same depth-level.

[Derakon]

Any time you propose "locking the player in", you greatly increase the risk the player is taking. This is doubly true when the player cannot see what is in the vault prior to entering. Angband is in many ways about taking calculated risks. Do I risk popping this wall down and spending a turn in LOS of this nasty monster who's standing between me and an unknown ring type? Do I risk waking up that Black Reaver who's standing next to that tasty-looking dragon pit? Et cetera.

Generally, the consensus among experienced players here is that knowledge of your surroundings is the most vital requirement for survival. You cannot avoid risks that you do not know about. If you tell them that they have to go into a total unknown area, and may not even be able to get back out again, the probable answer from them is going to be "bugger that, I'll just make do with normal dungeon levels". Locked-in, "black box" vaults are more dangerous than being 2000' deeper than you "should" be, once you have adequate detection.

Of course, these are solvable problems -- generally, solvable by dialing down the threat level of vaults substantially and guaranteeing that the player will be allowed to flee (at the very least, before they have really "started" the vault). I mean, it wouldn't be remotely fair for the player to enter a vault at 1000', come face to face with Vecna, and be told "Oh, and you have to kill him to get out!".

Still, I tend to favor design that encourages the player to get themselves in over their heads. Let them kill themselves (so to speak). "I should have known better than to stick around on this level after so many summons, but I got greedy" is an excellent cause of death. "I decided to enter a vault and it turned out to be unsurvivable" is not.

[debo]

DCSS has baileys, ossuaries, and a whole bunch of things like this. They're not as dangerous as Angband vaults would be if you just transplanted them to this model, but nor are they cakewalks. I think they're really fun. (Zigs are sort of this idea taken to a natural extreme.)

They're also not mutually exclusive to vaults there; having both in Vanilla could be fun.

[Estie]

Vanilla Angband has 2 phases: 1. you can get 1-hit killed and 2. you cannot. Phase 2 is reached at about 700 hit points and important resists covered. In phase 2 you can fight basically everything, in phase 1 you have to pick your fights. With skill (dont let yourself get surrounded), knowledge (always carry teleport scrolls) and luck (find teleport scrolls), you can avoid encounters that are over your head.

From the game makers pov, this has the advantage that he doesnt have to worry about monster power/balance too much. While there is monster level to get a rough power sorting, relative danger to the player depends on many things (class, quality of gear,....). But if a monster happens to be more dangerous than it should be for its level, thats not a big deal because the player must be able to avoid higher level monsters anyway, so he can as well avoid the low level, but dangerous one.

If you stick the player into a "fight your way out or die trying" situation during phase 1, you probably want a better power sorting than just monster level to provide him with reasonable encounters. Given the great range of player hit points, monster damage, speed difference and whatnot that can occur in midgame, this might be a hard task. I have very few ideas as to how to create good filters for monster spawn at various levels, but one simple one might be to not allow uniques in vaults. This measure alone will remove many spikes.

I am aware that permanent vault levels dont completely remove the ability to avoid fights - its not as black and white as I picture it above - but if I understand this correctly, the idea is to severly limit the players escape/avoid options so the above considerations should still apply.