Nightlies

[Magnate]

An optimist, I see.

Well, we were lucky the first time - his sister started sleeping through from ~11pm to about 6am from ten weeks old. But even without that kind of luck, there's a difference between the 3-5 hours at a time you get after the first ten weeks and the 1-2 hours you get before ...

[Nick]

no-sleep-for-about-ten-weeks

An optimist, I see.

[Magnate]

Thanks for providing some badly-missing context, Magnate. I apologize for calling Eddie's assertion "entirely inaccurate".

You couldn't have known, since the existence of email correspondence was not revealed in the initial assertion.

It sounds like shots have been fired on both sides, now. I hope everyone involved can still cool off and apologize, even if they don't agree with each other.

Yes, I feel I've had my say, and got my head to a better place where working on angband is fun again. As for apologies, I can point to a number of posts in which I apologise to Eddie for misunderstanding him, disagreeing with him, implementing something imperfectly or otherwise annoying him - including my last one in the previous thread. Since he's raised the issue of the emails here, I'm happy to apologise here again for the rude reply: sorry Eddie.

It's great you've been able to dedicate so much time to Angband development. I'm sure we all appreciate it. But your kid comes first. And speaking of which, congratulations!

So you read the whole thing then ;-) ... thank you. Gabriel was born on Thursday at 1am GMT, so we're in that normal no-sleep-for-about-ten-weeks phase. And no, his name only coincidentally matches Timo's favourite unique - it was chosen by my angband-hating wife ...

[Derakon]

Thanks for providing some badly-missing context, Magnate. I apologize for calling Eddie's assertion "entirely inaccurate". It sounds like shots have been fired on both sides, now. I hope everyone involved can still cool off and apologize, even if they don't agree with each other.

It's great you've been able to dedicate so much time to Angband development. I'm sure we all appreciate it. But your kid comes first. And speaking of which, congratulations!

[Magnate]

I wouldn't go that far.

Both of you have long experience with the game, and care deeply about it. Different opinions are fine, but lowering the temperature a little seems like a good idea.

And if your opinions are that different, just make your own damn variant and stop whingeing

Amen.

To be fair to Eddie, my reply to his email was indeed rude. I felt that he had been both unjust and disingenuous in his attacks on me in this forum, piling on the criticism when (i) we had made it clear there was a long way to go for 3.3 and things would get odder before they got better, and (ii) he had informed takkaria privately that he intended both to lobby for a return to 3.0.x gameplay and finally to release his own fork/variant, without making those clear in public. So to receive an email out of the blue which didn't acknowledge any of that or offer any kind of apology for the deterioration of the debate was infuriating.

I think my posting history makes it clear that I have always had a great deal of respect for Eddie's abilities and views, agree with most of the latter, and have largely enjoyed debating with him. The respect and enjoyment are clearly no longer reciprocated, if they ever were, and he likes to believe that we agree about almost nothing.

Anyway, I've had a break and mentally resigned from my position as de facto devteam spokesperson, compulsively responding to every thread about the nightlies. On this particular issue, I have made clear for over two years that I will rewrite obj-power.c to correct all sorts of failings with it - see tickets #1003, #1004, #1005, #1188 for a start. This was dependent on #803, which has taken me a very long time but was committed to staging this morning (it's an internal refactor so should not be noticeable when it hits the nightlies). I am now confident that I will get to the obj-power rewrite fairly soon (see http://trac.rephial.org/roadmap - my other big goal for 3.3 is the "knowledge" file, #950 et al.). Whether this will be 3.3 or a later release depends on takkaria, of course.

I have also made clear over the same two-year period that if *anyone* can produce a pricing algorithm which better handles random combinations of item properties, I'll be the first to test and commit it. I am under no illusions about my abilities as a designer or a coder, and I'm happy to see my work improved by others.

All that said, I am sorry that the implementation of multiple pvals has caused a few pricing issues (they have nothing to do with randarts btw). To be honest it's caused far fewer than I had feared, these being nightlies and all, but I admit that I didn't spend very long fixing obj-power or randarts to work perfectly with multiple pvals. This was a deliberate decision, because the longer I spent fixing up the current versions, the more that would delay the rewrites, and while 3.3 is still without a release date I figured it was better to work towards the rewrites. d_m has kindly offered to fix up obj-power in the meantime, and I'm now free to help with that. Paternity leave is a wonderful thing.

[Nick]

Nevertheless, if you and Nick think I am out of line then surely I am. I'd better take an extended break from discussions here.

I wouldn't go that far.

Both of you have long experience with the game, and care deeply about it. Different opinions are fine, but lowering the temperature a little seems like a good idea.

And if your opinions are that different, just make your own damn variant and stop whingeing

[PowerDiver]

Eddie, you're out of line. That was rude, uncalled for, and absolutely inaccurate.

I sent a message about the bugs I had found and what needed to be done. I was matter of fact, nothing pejorative, trying to be civil. I offered to fix things, but didn't want to be modifying the same code I thought he might already be working on. I believe my summation of the response to be accurate. I shouldn't be writing this, but I cannot leave "absolutely inaccurate" uncontested.

Nevertheless, if you and Nick think I am out of line then surely I am. I'd better take an extended break from discussions here.

[d_m]

I'll be working instead on replacing randart pricing with improved old-style pricing. If you are interested in incorporating that change, let me know and I'll bump it up my todo list.

If you do come up with new pricing code that can handle randarts I would certainly be interested in trying it out. That said, I don't think you should alter your priorities on my account since the change would have to be discussed with others.

For my part, my #1 goal is to fix the overflow bug (which will just mean that some egos are priced too high). This should be easy. The next step would be to fix the obj-power calculation so it works "as intended" with multiple pvals. I think this is doable as it mostly involves some strategic loop placement and slight refactoring.

But I may be wrong. I don't know this part of the code well but I think those changes should be (relatively) easy to make to fix the nightlies.

[Derakon]

I offered to work on the code with him, but he made it clear that it was a higher priority to him to call me names than to get the code working.

Eddie, you're out of line. That was rude, uncalled for, and absolutely inaccurate.

[camlost]

These are the nightlies we're talking about, right? No need to get bent out of shape when they're not perfect.

[Nick]

I offered to work on the code with him, but he made it clear that it was a higher priority to him to call me names than to get the code working.

...or it's possible he over-reacted slightly to being told that everything he and the rest of the dev team had done for the last two years had been a waste of time, or worse. Who woulda thunk.

To be frank, Eddie, I think that the more the dev team have taken on board your suggestions, the less reasonable you have become.

Now, I have a lot of coding to do today. Don't make me come up here again

[PowerDiver]

Huh... I really wonder what happened there.

Can you post a savefile?

There's no need. The randart power code cannot handle multiple pvals. Any current launcher with a big dex bonus will be treated as being too powerful to be a randart. The final price is caused by overflow in store.c. The use of randart code for store prices means that any time randarts get broken, you have to worry about silly prices.

I offered to work on the code with him, but he made it clear that it was a higher priority to him to call me names than to get the code working.

I'll be working instead on replacing randart pricing with improved old-style pricing. If you are interested in incorporating that change, let me know and I'll bump it up my todo list.

[scud]

Can you post a savefile?

'Ere yer go...

[d_m]

Mac nightly of 5 March.

Being a ranger I'd much rather have a nice long bow, but I thought it would be rude not to buy this...

Huh... I really wonder what happened there.

Can you post a savefile?

[Taha]

With the latest nightliesmacros no longer appear in the options menu. Well, they do, but under m the commands available are only for keymaps. Are we moving to all keymaps, is there a new place to do macros, or is something wrong with my setup?
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