Goals for Vanilla 3.2.0: CHR -> stealth?

[Timo Pietilä]

I just checked what are the goals for 3.2.0.

One thing I noticed was mention of getting rid of charisma and replacing it with stealth.

I don't agree with that change, because stealth is more a skill than stat. It should be function of DEX, class and clvl (and initial value from race).

So, if not stealth, what then? Saving throw? (call it mindpower or something). Just remove CHR? Perception? Make Pseudo-ID accuracy depend of that?

[ewert]

Though I don't see many problems with having stealth as the 6th stat, I propose just nixing it, end of story. 6th stat that is. Or maybe agility (which would be the +stealth stat, not dex), and would compromise of dodge (+ac) and movement (innate +speed up to +10 at 18/200?), as well as partake a little in +hit.

But ... just nix the 6th stat TBH. Just because D&D had them does not mean it can't be dropped if it is unnecessary and boring in Angband. Two mental, two physical stats and constitution (yes yes, it is physical .. ) sounds good enough to me.

[fizzix]

Though I don't see many problems with having stealth as the 6th stat, I propose just nixing it, end of story. 6th stat that is. Or maybe agility (which would be the +stealth stat, not dex), and would compromise of dodge (+ac) and movement (innate +speed up to +10 at 18/200?), as well as partake a little in +hit.

But ... just nix the 6th stat TBH. Just because D&D had them does not mean it can't be dropped if it is unnecessary and boring in Angband. Two mental, two physical stats and constitution (yes yes, it is physical .. ) sounds good enough to me.

I agree with this. It is time to ditch Chr. The only reason to keep it, is if having high CHR makes spells of confuse/scare/sleep actually useful and even causes monsters to lose interest in you and wander away. But those are variant territory for sure.

[Ycombinator]

I think that currently unused "social status" can affect the game in the same way as CHR does currently, whether CHR is replaced with other stat or just removed. I mean, half-trolls are ugly, but does this shopkeeper really want to argue with lvl 50 H-T warrior?

[PowerDiver]

There are two separate questions.

(1) Should the CHR stat be removed?

(2) Should a new stat be added.?

Has there been any serious call for a new stat over the last decade? There is no point getting silly about (2) because of the entirely independent (1).


Less is more. Just remove CHR and be done.

[nppangband]

I agree with this. It is time to ditch Chr. The only reason to keep it, is if having high CHR makes spells of confuse/scare/sleep actually useful and even causes monsters to lose interest in you and wander away. But those are variant territory for sure.

I have played with that in NPP, but it doesn't make a noticable difference. Most of the monsters you want to sleep/confuse/scare are immune to it.

[fizzix]

I have played with that in NPP, but it doesn't make a noticable difference. Most of the monsters you want to sleep/confuse/scare are immune to it.

I agree that high Chr would have to be able to overcome immunity for it to be useful.

18/00 overrides immunity for anything your clevel or less
18/10 anything clevel+2 or less
18/20 anything clevel+4 and so on.
Monsters still get a saving throw, although this may need to be adjusted as well.

I do think that chucking it altogether is probably preferred.

[Magnate]

There are two separate questions.

(1) Should the CHR stat be removed?

(2) Should a new stat be added.?

Has there been any serious call for a new stat over the last decade? There is no point getting silly about (2) because of the entirely independent (1).


Less is more. Just remove CHR and be done.

Agreed. Happy to remove CHR, and not to add any extra stat. I do think that stealth should increase with clev though, at least for certain classes. Rogue certainly should get +1 stealth every 10 levels or so. Perhaps warriors every 15 or 20 levels. Not sure about the other classes. By contrast I don't think stealth should be affected by any stat, since it has its own pval. If you make stealth stat-dependent, you should take away +stealth pvals.

[ekolis]

This is probably also variant territory (and it's been done before, too - see Unangband and ToME 4 among others), but what about a Cunning or Willpower stat? I could see such a stat affecting spell power or fail rate (making INT no longer the "everything to do with spells" stat), chance to land a critical hit (for Cunning), or a HP multiplier in addition to CON (for Willpower)...

Ideally, all stats would have benefits for all classes, though... I never really cared for the idea of "oh, you're a warrior? then INT and WIS are irrelevant the entire game!" or "oh, you're a mage? then don't bother with STR!"... IMHO I'd kinda like to see WIS go away... seriously, what's the real difference between that and INT, for gameplay purposes? High INT is useful for mages/rogues/rangers and worthless for priests/paladins, and the reverse is true for WIS! Why not merge them into one stat? Sure, WIS affects saving throw, but isn't that effect kinda small compared to intrinsic race/class effects?

[RogerN]

The six-stat system (STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHR) was originally seen in pen-and-paper RPGs which featured far more skills than Angband. Since Angband is a purely a combat game, the stats are somewhat redundant.

Wisdom, for example, was representative of both willpower and perception, and would be used in D&D for a variety of skill checks: Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Heal, Survival, etc... Since none of those skill checks exist in Angband, the Wisdom stat just isn't very useful if you're not a priest.

The only way to make each stat generally more useful is to implement a larger variety of skill checks. But that would be a pretty big change for Vanilla.

[Antoine]

The six-stat system (STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHR) was originally seen in pen-and-paper RPGs which featured far more skills than Angband. ... Wisdom, for example, was representative of both willpower and perception, and would be used in D&D for a variety of skill checks: Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Heal, Survival, etc...

I guarantee ya there was no such thing as a Sense Motive skill check when the six-stat system was brought into roguelikes

A.

[Derakon]

"I try to tell what the young white dragon's motives are."

"He wants to kill you."

"Hunh, just like the ghost, the swordsman, that entire army of orcs..."

[PowerDiver]

The only way to make each stat generally more useful is to implement a larger variety of skill checks. But that would be a pretty big change for Vanilla.

I always thought the ridiculous number of stats was intended to keep parties more harmonious. Weapons with int to one guy, wis to another, chr to a third etc. Less party squabbling when it is clear one class is the intended recipient. In a single player game it turns into design for junk.

[buzzkill]

I sure I'm not the first to suggest it, and probably picked up the idea from something I read. Make both of the brainy stats important to casters. Why not have INT determine max SP, and WIS determine spell failure rate for mage-types. Invert it for priest-types. CHR is now as it always has been, useless. None the less, I say keep it around until we find something better to replace it with.

[Antoine]

"I try to tell what the young white dragon's motives are."

"He wants to kill you."

"Hunh, just like the ghost, the swordsman, that entire army of orcs..."

"I make a Listen check."

"You hear a blast of cold approaching."

"I make a Survival check!"

"You fail."

A.