Comp 234

[DavidMedley]

I earned "best loser" status!

[DavidMedley]

I definitely don't want to remove all the penalties and I don't want everyone to always want to use it. But it's so fun and flavorful and thematically appropriate that I want to make sure it's useful for players who are trying to survive and win.

New thought: what if BG occasionally went into Bloodlust unintentionally? Maybe starting at CL10, every time you get hit or kill something there's a small chance to enter the state?

[Nick]

I am starting to wonder just how good Bloodlust would have to be to offset losing control. Could move it earlier where it wouldn't matter much if it killed you, or make it so you can't lose control two turns in a row.

I think if everyone always wanted to use it it would be too good, and it's probably pretty much ideal as is.

[Sphara]

I perfectly understand DM's passion of balancing blackguard with other classes.
If Bloodlust penalties were removed, it would break the game. Concentrate on other stuff, I'd say.

[wobbly]

I had Thorin's shield, so rchaos & no hallucination. Before that I had a blade of chaos, HA maybe? or *slay evil? They certainly perform quite well with a decent ego blade of chaos.

[Sphara]

It's just a personal preference. Bloodlust is good enough to encourage taking some risks. I think wobbly already mentioned that he cleaned everything with it. I sure as hell killed several tough enemies with it.

But I try not to take risks against Morgoth if they involve hallucination or slowing the way I cannot cure them.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that there is nothing wrong if game gives you a chance of supermassive damage with a little bit of gamble. To me, Bloodlust works fine among the other blackguard mechanics.

[DavidMedley]

I am starting to wonder just how good Bloodlust would have to be to offset losing control. Could move it earlier where it wouldn't matter much if it killed you, or make it so you can't lose control two turns in a row.

[Sphara]

The biggest and most basic question is: do they seem over or under powered compared to other classes?

The endgame is extremely potent and you don't even need to gamble with Bloodlust. It does insane damage but I'm personally uncomfortable with it. Mace of Disruption in Werewolf Form had higher dmg against Morgoth, than many of my warriors have ever had.

Early game and especially midgame are really, really tough. You wake everything up. You're really not that strong against fast enemies. Good spells come usable pretty late and MP is low for a long time. You don't have much room miscasting Maim for many times, before your MP hits zero.

I think it fits pretty goddamn well with the other classes. For me, it had easier endgame than paladin, necromancer or even warrior.

[DavidMedley]

The biggest and most basic question is: do they seem over or under powered compared to other classes?

[DavidMedley]

I will find time for a revision pretty soon. Here's what I had in mind about six weeks ago:

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=10282

Very happy for additional ideas and feedback from the participants in this competition!

[wobbly]

You never get MP back for using the spells. Technically, you probably get a small rebate for using Unholy Bargain since it hurts you.

You also get SPs when you are damaged from banish which was probably unintended but I like it.

[malcontent]

My 2 cents on the half-orc Blackguard point based defaults - horrible

+8 18/30
0 9
0 7
+12 18
0 13

My recommendation:

+6 18/20
+6 15
0 7
0 10
+8 18/20

You lose blows a fractional amount blows, dexterity isn't going to help you with blows much for quite some time in the game.

You are a somewhat competent spell caster, which at CL20 is where your extra blows are going to come from, plus you get HP recovery simply for casting things like Berserk Strength and Grim purpose.

You git more HPs, which is obviously nice.

So instead of 18 HPs and 1 SP at game start, you have 20 HPs, and 2 SPs at game start.

I feel like this combo suits the internal combustion engine that is the Blackguard - casting and fighting to rejuvenate.

[DavidMedley]

You never get MP back for using the spells. Technically, you probably get a small rebate for using Unholy Bargain since it hurts you.

[Sphara]

@David

For your knowledge, I actually learned to like Whirlwind quite a bit more.
Its still not a game-changer in any way. But goddamn its useful against those endless canine packs, druadan magi and other escort marked monsters.

Does hitting more than one thing with Whirlwind raise your MP accordingly? I noticed that my mana did not raise as fast as I killed monsters with it. Maybe kills never outweighed the cost casting it, I dunno.

[Gwarl]

We can do another one later with more notice..