V standarts are horribad

[Pete Mack]

Put strictly limits on slots, say "at most 1 resistance on gloves". "No resistance on bows". Etc.

[Estie]

Pete - certainly!, but how do you propose to make the kit random ?

[Pete Mack]

Estie--i see it differently. Sure, a randart set may have a weakness in a particular slot, but in that case an ego is better. (The same regularly happens for standarts--Crown of Might, or MoD (HA), or Ring of Speed/Damage, let alone PDSM (Dwarven).)

The issue is the other slots, where object type is limited by design (gloves,lights, boots, cloak, amulet, bow), the randart set has no such limitation. So you will almost invariably have artifacts in those slots that increase character power relative to the norm--be that norm artifact, ego item, or base item.

[Estie]

Randarts are meant to be similar in power, so they give a similar game experience but allow a player who is overly familiar with the standard artifact set to get more surprises.

This is ONLY true if randarts are considerably more powerfull than egos, so you end up using predominantly artifacts in your kit; getting unusual modifiers on items youre not going to use is of no concern.

It used to be that the power distribution between item types looked something like this

(with
1 - magic items
2 - egos
3 - standarts):

1------2------3

Then the standarts got nerfed (at least once in a big way, possibly more often*), so now it looks more like this:

1------2-3

Now randarts have more variance so in any given slot you might end up with more power than the standart would provide - right of the 3 - or with less, which might push you left of the ego, so you end up using the ego.

I believe it is already the case that randart @s use egos in more slots than standart @s.

What *should* have been done, when standarts got nerfed, is this:

1------2------3 -> 1----2----3

That is, also reducing the power of egos.

If the egos would have a (relevant) random element, it wouldnt matter much what you do with the artifacts since you end up with unpredictable items in every slot anyway.

I have raised this point before, more than once I am sure. And of course, the same thing is about to happen again, and after that, its probably time for yet another nerf of teleport other.




*and in a bad way, too, best illustrated with Sting: Instead of removing one of the stat bonuses, going from (+2, +2, +2) to (+1, +1,+1) makes each individual bonus (even more) meaningless; its a boring, one-dimensional layer of power with no choices to make.

[Pete Mack]

Sure, you get a few useless artifacts every game. Like Elvagil, and that ceappy saber.

[Mondkalb]

Randarts can also have loughable outcomes like stuff with nothing but one bonus to an attribute or one resistance.
Also, the rings are usually not so good as the elven rings, often they lack ESP or speed.

But I am not complaining!
There are often nice surpirises like immunities or speed on other items. It usually is just another mini game of shuffling around gear than with standard artifacts.

Still, it could be interesting to alos have ego powers shuffled.

[Pete Mack]

The trouble is that the distribution of facets goes across equipment types for randarts, while they are limited by equipment type in the base randarts. In particular, you can get fantastic resistances on bows, lights, and gloves, which really opens up possibilities. Not to mention extra blows, slays, or movement on just about anything.

[Nick]

again, it's not the weapon, or the speed. It's the fact that cloaks, gloves, armors, are pathetic. Midrange weapons are pathetic. You don't get cloaks +6 DEX rChaos rDisen pStun +2 Spd with standarts. There's no boots +10 Spd +3 CON +3 DEX *Cold A:Tele_Self.
You get miserable stuff like the plate of Isildur (which you would imaging is a majestic artifact of infinite splendour) which has a pathetic +1 CON, rNexus and pConf.

The armor i am wearing NOW for my randart troll (nowhere near DL97) has +4 INT (don't need it), +5 CON, pConf/Stun/Blind, dark/shards/disench.
I have 4 sustains, *Elect, STR/CON/WIS capped, and frankly, this is one of the most mediocre randart sets i have ever played.

Here is the cloak i was wearing until just now:
+6 WIS, rLight, pBlind, pStun, SI, A: Detection.

Every item is full of things; they are random, but there's enough that by moving around the gear, you can easily get everything that you need.
Instead standarts are .. "themed". WHY does Thorin need -stealth. *Acid too powerful? Come on.
Standart set is scared to give you a +4 CON item without attaching some downside to it. I'm at +14 equipment bonus and have been for a considerable time, with the other character i was at 18/190 for ages. Randarts are so powerful that you can vulgarly throw together a set without even bothering to read them fully, and you'll still be overpowered.


Nick, if you are reading this .. and you are .. you need to add a floating, few randarts to the standart set. As it it, it sucks.

Yes, I am reading this

I will express my opinion about this now, so there is no doubt.

The problem is not the standard artifacts, it is randarts. The standard artifacts are designed with game balance in mind. Randarts are meant to be similar in power, so they give a similar game experience but allow a player who is overly familiar with the standard artifact set to get more surprises. The problem is that trying to make a "random" set of artifacts is a long way from being a clearly defined problem.

The current algorithm scans the standard artifacts to get a distribution of properties across them, and then attempts to pick randomly from that distribution. But it is far from clear what that actually means, so the history is that there's an attempted algorithm, people complain about the results, and then the algorithm is tweaked until people stop complaining. The only virtue of this is that people aren't complaining (much) about randarts.

So my three options for randarts currently are:

1. Do nothing beyond the odd minor tweak;
2. Nerf the hell out of them;
3. Throw the entire algorithm away and start again, probably at the same time doing a rethink of the standard artifacts, ego items and possibly the combat system (as foreshadowed here).

Discuss

[Pete Mack]

@Sky--
Not so. There are two excellent pairs of gloves in the standard artifact set. Each gives good damage and helps in melee stats. (There is a third that makes a viable imFire swap.) That you find Cambeleg underpowered almost certainly means that randarts are unbalanced; not so much because the randart gloves are more powerful, but because they give so many options that making an Uber kit is too easy. Standarts are balanced by strictly limiting the capabilities in each slot.

[Sky]

again, it's not the weapon, or the speed. It's the fact that cloaks, gloves, armors, are pathetic. Midrange weapons are pathetic. You don't get cloaks +6 DEX rChaos rDisen pStun +2 Spd with standarts. There's no boots +10 Spd +3 CON +3 DEX *Cold A:Tele_Self.
You get miserable stuff like the plate of Isildur (which you would imaging is a majestic artifact of infinite splendour) which has a pathetic +1 CON, rNexus and pConf.

The armor i am wearing NOW for my randart troll (nowhere near DL97) has +4 INT (don't need it), +5 CON, pConf/Stun/Blind, dark/shards/disench.
I have 4 sustains, *Elect, STR/CON/WIS capped, and frankly, this is one of the most mediocre randart sets i have ever played.

Here is the cloak i was wearing until just now:
+6 WIS, rLight, pBlind, pStun, SI, A: Detection.

Every item is full of things; they are random, but there's enough that by moving around the gear, you can easily get everything that you need.
Instead standarts are .. "themed". WHY does Thorin need -stealth. *Acid too powerful? Come on.
Standart set is scared to give you a +4 CON item without attaching some downside to it. I'm at +14 equipment bonus and have been for a considerable time, with the other character i was at 18/190 for ages. Randarts are so powerful that you can vulgarly throw together a set without even bothering to read them fully, and you'll still be overpowered.


Nick, if you are reading this .. and you are .. you need to add a floating, few randarts to the standart set. As it it, it sucks.

[Mondkalb]

Random ego items sound like fun.

[Ed_47569]

I didn't catch that he'd got two of the very best artifacts in the game. Part of the problem is that H-T is not a great choice for paladin, as it's really hard to get 5 blows. That said, Trickery is easily a better choice than Elessar.

I would agree - Elessar has been nerfed at some point, it used to have +7/+7 hit/damage bonuses. Trickery or Weaponmastery are my favourites.

[Pete Mack]

I didn't catch that he'd got two of the very best artifacts in the game. Part of the problem is that H-T is not a great choice for paladin, as it's really hard to get 5 blows. That said, Trickery is easily a better choice than Elessar.

[Ed_47569]

I wouldn't complain too much...

[Character Equipment]

a) the Mace of Disruption 'Deathwreaker' (7d8) (+18,+18) <+6, +4>
Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4850 feet (level 97)

+6 strength.
+4 tunneling.
Slays undead (powerfully), dragons, animals, evil creatures.
Branded with fire.
Provides immunity to fire.
Provides resistance to dark, chaos, disenchantment.
Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
Aggravates creatures nearby.

Combat info:
4.0 blows/round.
With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 4.5 blows
Average damage/round: 689.2 vs. creatures not resistant to fire,
1006.8 vs. undead, 689.2 vs. dragons, 530.4 vs. animals, 530.4 vs.
evil creatures, and 371.6 vs. others.


l) the Pair of Leather Boots of Fëanor [2,+20] <+15>
Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4550 feet (level 91)

+15 speed.
Provides resistance to nexus.
Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.

When activated, it hastens you for d20+20 turns.
Takes 760 turns to recharge at your current speed.
Your chance of success is 90.9%

[Pete Mack]

What I'm hearing is I need to nerf randarts again.

Pretty much, yeah. Nether resist is *way* too common. It should be hard to get.