V standarts are horribad

[Nick]

It used to be that the power distribution between item types looked something like this

(with
1 - magic items
2 - egos
3 - standarts):

1------2------3

Then the standarts got nerfed (at least once in a big way, possibly more often*), so now it looks more like this:

1------2-3

There was a fair bit of back and forth on this, including improvements and nerfs to standard artifacts, and the change so that weak egos were generated less often deep, which improved the quality of late-game egos.

The idea of ToME-like egos was coded up by Magnate for v4 (remember that thing?), but never included in the main game. Going that way would be a possibility, but my feeling is it would probably lead to more strong egos rather than less.

Another possibility is the O/FA system of all games having both the standard artifacts and some random artifacts, generated in a more structured way. If we went that way we would probably want to cut the number of standard artifacts a bit.

[Estie]

Why should that be a winner ? It is an ego item, not a randart....

What exactly is your objective ?

[Pete Mack]

Here's an example of armor that should be a winner but isn't because of randarts:
Balance Dragon Armor of Elvenkind (Slay Huan) <+2>
Resists Base, Light, Shards, Sound, Chaos, Disenchantment.

However, I already have armor with:
Resist Base, Nexus, Chaos, Disenchantment.
FA, SI
pFear, pStun(!)

I suppose I could put the BaDSM on and slay Huan-it's a *perfect* match, and I am missing Shards, Light, and Sound. But pStun is hard to beat.

[Estie]

my thoughts about nerfing randarts;

I just don't like the standart set; i don't like having 4/5 artifacts on me and NOT ONE HAS FREE ACTION. Or pConf. or SI.

Are you basing this dislike off the one game you played ?

[Sky]

my thoughts about nerfing randarts;

1. the previous nerf was a good thing. Randarts with triple +7 stat bonuses were ridiculous.
2. i would prefer a complete rework of the creation system. The "betterness" of the randart sets is not in how many stat bonuses or how big of a stat bonus they have, but rather that to a randart rFire and rChaos are the same, it doesn't think every arti should have rFire "but only this rare one should have rChaos". The more .. well, random, distribution of bonuses and abilities means that if you pull 8 artifacts out of the pool, they will tend to have pretty much everything you need.
3. for the reason above, i don't think that a flat nerf "just reduce the power level" would change much.

I like randart games, i think they are perfectly fine. Not everyone spends an entire day IRL on DL98 scumming for power500+ artifacts, and playing with randarts sets is not only more fun (due to figuring out what gear build you can do) but alltogether a "difficulty level" of Angband which i find appropriate.

I just don't like the standart set; i don't like having 4/5 artifacts on me and NOT ONE HAS FREE ACTION. Or pConf. or SI.

I'm not saying *every* pair of arti gloves i find should be +3 DEX rPois rDise rNexus FA ESP, but hey.

[Estie]

I like the pre-/suffix way of diablo, (somewhat) implemented in tome2:

shocking rapier(70%) or rapier of extra attacks(30%), and a small chance (forgot how much) of "a shocking rapier of extra attacks".

[wobbly]

Well while we are talking about these things I may as well float an idea I was planning to try out for something that was either a "randart" or a "named ego" that was generated on the fly (e.g. you'd get them still in a standart set).

Generate an ego. Then pick an artifact, usually the same base object but chance of not. Combine the 2 using a set of weighted rolls. (e.g. rolling to see if it keeps a property). So its a bit like, half the ego it picked and half the artifact it picked.

[Estie]

Considering I'd wear both of these all day, hard to disagree with that change.

I am not disagreeing with nerfing artifacts per se; I am disagreeing about lowering the relative power of artifact versus ego.

The objective is to avoid situations like "I dont have to go and pick up that set of augmented chainmail because I already have Caspanion (when playing standarts) and/or a dwarven PDSM" (when not).

Currently, a piece of bodyarmor could have +10 speed or +2 attacks, either of which would make it eligible for replacing the PDSM. I dont see how Pete's suggestion is going to work without resetting this.

[Pete Mack]

The thalcs were 2d4 (+4,+6) in 3.0. But there were enchant scrolls in the alchemist, allowing (+7,+8) at moderate expense. 1d4 (+6,+12) is roughly equivalent to 2d4 (+6,+7). So they are roughly where they were in 3.0, but with less flavor

[wobbly]

It was a shaving off everywhere, right at the time when independant pvals were introduced. Thorin, Elessar, many others.

Thalkettoth has 3 speed in tome2, so it must be there since ages. I am talking about more recent times.

The switch in pvals happens going from 3.2 to 3.3.

Elessar loses its (+7,+7)
Sting gains the +spd when it drops to +1 str/con/dex.
Thorin loses 1 str and stealth and Dor-lomin loses 2 dex. Considering I'd wear both of these all day, hard to disagree with that change.
Caspanion was +3 int, wis, con instead of +2 int/wis and +3 con. Was probably more interesting before? The ultimate caster armour. int/wis/con/rconf
Crown of Gondor used to be crazy. another +1 wis, +rchaos and +3 spd.

Most things are actually the same. A big buff going from 2.9.3 to 3.x and a minor nerf of some of the super artifacts going from 3.2 to 3.3

Edit:Fix numbers on Caspanion

[Estie]

The early light weapons have always been strong; *thancs went back and forth between 1d4 and 2d4 base a couple times, but either way they are more powerful than what youll get in a randart set at that time.

[wobbly]

I'll have a look at version 3 sometime, because all I'm seeing here are large buffs. Forasgil changes from 1d6 to 1d12 for instance. I know that most of the artifacts were buffed at some point because Gwarl buffed artifacts going from PCB to CPB to bring them into line with the modern V versions.

[Estie]

I don't think this is true. As in I'm literally comparing the artifact file from 2.9.3 and 4.2.

Sting loses 1 str/dex/con and gains +3 spd, slay animal. Hard to argue that was a large nerf.

Thalkettoth gains +3 spd which is a nerf in reverse.

It was a shaving off everywhere, right at the time when independant pvals were introduced. Thorin, Elessar, many others.

Thalkettoth has 3 speed in tome2, so it must be there since ages. I am talking about more recent times.

[wobbly]

Then the standarts got nerfed (at least once in a big way, possibly more often*), so now it looks more like this:

I don't think this is true. As in I'm literally comparing the artifact file from 2.9.3 and 4.2.

Sting loses 1 str/dex/con and gains +3 spd, slay animal. Hard to argue that was a large nerf.

Thalkettoth gains +3 spd which is a nerf in reverse.

[Estie]

And are you going to change Amrod to abide by those rules, too ?