V standarts are horribad

[Sky]

all i can say is that i am glad Angband doesn't count the hours i play.

[Pete Mack]

Yeah, I have an endgame kit now, 50% randart and 50% ego and "ordinary" items. The result: 650+ damage vs evil, 800+ vs demons and undead: MoD (HA) is perhaps the most class appropriate weapon for a Paladin, even though it partly obviates PB3.

I am only using randarts for 6 of 12 slots, but they let me use =speed <+12>, =Damage(+12) and
] Combat (+2,+7) [6,+15] <+2,+1>

[wobbly]

I don't believe getting an endgame kit out of randarts is actually a problem. You can get an endgame kit out of no artifacts without too much trouble.

[Pete Mack]

I agree randarts should be slightly stronger than standarra because they can't be so carefully assembled. But I also don't think I should find a sling of rPois+rNeth at DL 26. DL 60, maybe.

[fph]

The reasons why randarts are there is because with standarts every game ends with the same kit, and the thrill of finding something new is gone. I don't see a way to reconcile that thrill with the gameplay idea of "let's have a carefully designed endgame kit that fits all game plans".

[will_asher]

I'm not a huge fan of this, personally. I find randarts don't really have any personality. They feel less like ancient gear with a story behind them, and more like gamey stuff thrown at you by a game for gaming. I know it's a small thing, but it's the primary reason I don't play with randarts (the other being that I find they make the game a little boring).

This one is my favorite:
(The Beaked Axe of Hurin, copied straight from artifact.txt)
desc:Wielded by Húrin Thalion, last lord of Dor-Lómin at the Battle
desc: of Tears Unnumbered. He stood alone, his friends and kinsmen
desc: dead about him, his axe smoking in the black blood of Gothmog's
desc: troll-guard. No less than seventy times, as he slew his foes,
desc: did he utter his mighty war-cry: "Aurë entuluva!" - "Day shall
desc: come again!"

[Grotug]

It's not even as good as a weak DEX ring since it doesn't even sustain DEX (or did it?)

@Sky: what the actual flying f....... that is insane kit for your depth. crazy.

I used to be of the mind of Archolewa but I got bored of the same artifacts after awhile, though it was the splendid writing of the artifacts that hooked me on the game in first place. The first time I tried randarts I immediately went back to standarts as the first randart I found was gloves with +2 dex, rFire and nothing else. I used to scorn randarts for the same reasons such as lack of history/flavor and feeling like gamey stuff thrown at you by a game for gaming. I also used to never play half-troll because I didn't like the idea of playing an evil character, but now that I am corrupted by the power of the half-troll and randarts I cannot go back.

Sky, my suspicion is you play Angband a wee bit more than others on here. I have to agree with Sky overall, though. In Standart games I rely on things like trickery, crowns of might ad preservation shields and other ego items to succeed whereas in randart games just about every slot ends up with some powerful artifact.

Personally I don't think the treasure system really needs much tweaking on either side of the aisle. I think the 1......2..3 distribution works well. I like that a lot of ego items are as powerful or more powerful than artifacts.

[Mondkalb]

Yesterday @ got that wonderful band of whatshisname, with the amazing property of +1 DEX. And that's about it.
Well, there was nothing magnificant to expect from an early drop of Bullroarer, but come on, a named weak DEX ring?

[Sky]

judging a gameplay aspect on *not-gameplay* factors ? like judging which one of two characters is stronger in play by the art that depicts them?
Ok cool so the Phial of Galadriel is nice because .. well, it's the phial. Of Galadriel.

How long is that going to last? I dont know about you, but i'm very far from when i used to google who Carcharoth is.


Standards are weaker than randarts. Because nobody set off to design randarts to be balanced, or themed. Guys, seriously.

Here is a brand new character, CL35. Lowest i've been is DL46.

 [Angband 4.1.3 Character Dump]

 Name   Megabork     Age             25          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Race   Half-Troll   Height       7'10"   STR:  18/79  +4  -3 +14 18/***
 Class  Mage         Weight   20st 10lb   INT:  18/74  -4  +3 +11 18/174
 Title  Conjurer     Turns used:          WIS:  18/27  -2  +0 +13 18/137
 HP     345/345      Game        526503   DEX:  18/18  -4  +0 +12  18/98
 SP     245/245      Standard    111451   CON:  18/59  +3  -2  +2  18/89
                     Resting      57351

 Level                 35    Armor     [76,+109]    Saving Throw     63%
 Cur Exp           597226                           Stealth         Good
 Max Exp           597226    Melee       3d5,+35    Disarm - phys.   69%
 Adv Exp           675000    To-hit       35,+25    Disarm - magic   88%
                             Blows      3.5/turn    Magic Devices     83
 Gold              272334                           Searching        43%
 Burden          178.2 lb    Shoot to-dam    +18    Infravision    60 ft
 Overweight       -1.7 lb    To-hit       20,+25    Speed      25 (3.5x)
 Max Depth    2550' (L51)    Shots        1/turn

 Your father was a Stone-Troll Warrior.  You have slime-green eyes,
 dirty bright red hair, and black scabby skin.



rAcid:...+....+.... Nexus:..+..........
rElec:........+.... Nethr:.....+..+....
rFire:.*......+.... Chaos:...+...+.....
rCold:........+.... Disen:..+......+...
rPois:..+.......... pFear:..++.........
rLite:..+.......... pBlnd:...+......+..
rDark:...+....++... pConf:....+........
Sound:..........+.. pStun:..........+..
Shard:..+.......... HLife:.+......+....

Regen:..++.....+..+ Stea.:.......+...+.
  ESP:............. Sear.:.............
Invis:.+.......+... Infra:......+.....+
FrAct:....+++...+.. Tunn.:....+........
Feath:...+.......+. Speed:+.++.......+.
S.Dig:...+......... Blows:.............
ImpHP:............. Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.+...........
Aggrv:............. Light:...+++.......


  [Character Equipment]

a) the Katana of Faeth (3d5) (+8,+15) <+10>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 1900 feet (level 38)
     
     +10 speed.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     3.5 blows/round.
     With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would get 4.0 blows
     Average damage/round: 163.5.
     
b) the Light Crossbow of Marwain (x4) (+8,+18) <+4, +1>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 1350 feet (level 27)
     
     +4 strength.
     +1 shooting power.
     Provides immunity to fire.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Grants the ability to see invisible things.  Sustains your life
     force.  
     
     When activated, it deals 60 damage to all evil creatures that you
     can see.
     Takes 255 to 283 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 96.4%
     
c) the Ring of Milorfin <+6, +3, +4>
     Dropped by Sangahyando of Umbar at 1350 feet (level 27)
     
     +6 intelligence.
     +3 wisdom.
     +4 dexterity.
     +3 speed.
     Provides resistance to poison, light, shards, nexus,
     disenchantment.
     Provides protection from fear.
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     Sustains strength, dexterity.
     Speeds regeneration.  
     
     When activated, it drains up to 90 hit points of life from a
     target creature.  Does not affect undead, demons, golems,
     elementals or vortices.
     Takes 255 to 283 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 95.0%
     
d) the Ring of Aregul <+5, +3, +1>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 2300 feet (level 46)
     
     +5 intelligence.
     +3 wisdom.
     +3 dexterity.
     +5 speed.
     +1 light.
     Provides resistance to acid, dark, chaos.
     Provides protection from fear, blindness.
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     Slows your metabolism.  Feather Falling.  Speeds regeneration.  
     
e) the Amulet of Aegil <+3, +5, +1>
     Dropped by Boldor, King of the Yeeks at 850 feet (level 17)
     
     +3 wisdom.
     +5 dexterity.
     +5 tunneling.
     +1 light.
     Provides protection from confusion.
     Sustains intelligence.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When activated, it increases your AC and to-hit bonus for 1d12+6
     turns.
     Takes 171 to 189 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 95.0%
     
f) the Phial 'Helast' <+3>
     Dropped by Brodda, the Easterling at 1100 feet (level 22)
     
     +3 light.
     Provides resistance to nether.
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     Radius 3 light.
     
     When activated, it lights up the surrounding area, hurting
     light-sensitive creatures.
     Takes 38 to 70 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 92.8%
     
g) Full Plate Armour (Dwarven) (-3) [62,+15] <+2, +3>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 2300 feet (level 46)
     
     +2 strength.
     +2 constitution.
     +3 infravision.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
h) a Cloak of Aman [1,+18] <+1>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 2250 feet (level 45)
     
     +1 stealth.
     Provides resistance to chaos.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     
i) the Wicker Shield of Atalaisin [2,+21] <+5>
     Dropped by Akhorahil the Blind at 2250 feet (level 45)
     
     +5 strength.
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, dark, nether.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Sustains your life force.  
     
j) the Steel Helm 'Nelos' [9,+22] <+3, +4>
     Found lying on the floor at 2250 feet (level 45)
     
     +3 strength.
     +4 wisdom.
     Provides resistance to dark, disenchantment.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Sustains constitution.
     Speeds regeneration.  Grants the ability to see invisible things. 
     
     
k) the Set of Alchemist's Gloves of Nuvin [0,+21]
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 1950 feet (level 39)
     
     Provides resistance to sound.
     Provides protection from blindness, stunning.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When activated, it confuses a target monster.
     Takes 87 to 94 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 95.0%
     
l) a Pair of Leather Boots of Elvenkind [2,+7] <+4, +7>
     Dropped by Boldor, King of the Yeeks at 850 feet (level 17)
     
     +4 stealth.
     +7 speed.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Feather Falling.

i haven't even started diving, much less scumming the lowest floors.


.. mind you .. standards are still playable. It's just, that i get anxiety. Too many holes, and an overall lower power level at the same depth. Playing with standards is more difficult, and while some of you may think "great, one more reason to play with standarts" i myself am not of that school of thought.

[Pete Mack]

I think my main problem with randarts is that resistances are too easy to get, particularly the big 3: poison (800), nether (550), and chaos (600). I got the former two on that ridiculous sling at DL 26. Chaos in came too, long before it was needed. Sure, damage, ESP, HL, even rConf are wholes patched with swaps. But none of those can instakill, and only lack of permanent rConf is even remotely dangerous--indeed my closest shave was from an Ethereal drake waking up and coming out of a wall.

[VeritasAequitas]

I'm not a huge fan of this, personally. I find randarts don't really have any personality. They feel less like ancient gear with a story behind them, and more like gamey stuff thrown at you by a game for gaming. I know it's a small thing, but it's the primary reason I don't play with randarts (the other being that I find they make the game a little boring).

i second this actually now you mention this. Whenever i come across an artifact i often google it to find its history/lore in the world if i dont know it. i do the same with uniques

i mean, it doesnt mean ill use it necessarily if theres a better piece, but it might find a place in my home inventory

[archolewa]

Another possibility is the O/FA system of all games having both the standard artifacts and some random artifacts, generated in a more structured way. If we went that way we would probably want to cut the number of standard artifacts a bit.

I'm not a huge fan of this, personally. I find randarts don't really have any personality. They feel less like ancient gear with a story behind them, and more like gamey stuff thrown at you by a game for gaming. I know it's a small thing, but it's the primary reason I don't play with randarts (the other being that I find they make the game a little boring).

[Ingwe Ingweron]

So...nerf the ego, nerf the randart, you still going to have the randart equipped.

Or...just nerf the randarts and end up wearing ego, depriving the player of his randomness.

Or...randomize egos.

I dont care if its 1 or 3 or doing nothing at all, but I strongly oppose 2.

Or just play Comp 169.

"Leon is a human ranger. He has broken the rules of his community. For his penance, he was told to go 5000ft down the fortress of Angband and slay Morgoth. And since he was going to take the task too lightly, the gods decided that no artifacts would cross his path during that task."

I barely beat out PowerWyrm for the win on turncount by only 48 turns.

[Estie]

In standarts, that ego item would trump all but one exceeeingly rare artifact in terms of resistance.
In randarts, I found better at DL 57(!)

So...nerf the ego, nerf the randart, you still going to have the randart equipped.

Or...just nerf the randarts and end up wearing ego, depriving the player of his randomness.

Or...randomize egos.

I dont care if its 1 or 3 or doing nothing at all, but I strongly oppose 2.

[Pete Mack]

In standarts, that ego item would trump all but one exceeeingly rare artifact in terms of resistance.
In randarts, I found better at DL 57(!)