ivanilla experience

**ewert** · November 1, 2010, 09:39

Great, thanks for feedback first off, bought a new house and all that shazz so haven't had much time to playtest yet myself, only pre-statgain parts.

Originally posted by fizzix

No Selling
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This worked well. The amount of stuff I purchased in town was small. I was playing a priest to test out other changes, so I didn't need to purchase healing, and that's the major speed bump. I would push for gold drops to be a bit higher and to really bump up the amount of gold you get from digging. Make that be an option (although not at dlevel 1)

Yeah I am thinking of remaking the formula, sort of a ... can't remember which sort of formula, but the graphic is "slow start, steep middle, slow end" type so that 1-20 its about similar to now, then starts to increase strongly to maybe 50-60, and finally slowly increases till 100. That is a great idea of making digging drops higher, definitely will do that!

unlimited home.
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I made as much use of it as possible by never throwing out a single artifact. Although, I would've been better served by a museum because I sure as hell wasn't going to use all these artifacts. The unlimited home makes for a different play style and I'm not sure if I like it yet or not...I encourage other people to try it.

For randarts games for me I don't think I will ever play without it. But that is the beauty of options.

new level feelings
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I'm not sure these are any bit improved over the current ones, especially in the later depth. Looking through the code I thought it was buggy as it didn't seem you could ever get over 1. The idea is right, but I think the execution didn't work correctly. Although, I'll reserve more details until I find out if it was buggy or not.

It is a simple pit+ / unique check. Dangerroom checks for 0/1, unique adds +2 (2 or 3). From my testing it seems to be working (though I had missed non-out-of-depth uniques, not sure if you have that as it was a fix later on). I might probably steal npp-style "delayed" feeling for artifacts or artifact-quality high end items. But tbh ... I actually don't see the need for that.

clairvoyence does not detect items
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I liked this a lot. It affects priests more than anyone else. It's possible that the enlightenment potion should reveal items also. I wouldn't mind that. But I appreciated that the spell no longer did.

I am personally squelching detect treasure stuff at the moment, and trying purely no item detection style games. I'm currently of the mind of not having even the potions have it. Mapping whole level and lighting it is powerful. But it is also tedium removing in the endgame (especially the lighting part), so I feel it needs to be common enough in the end, so high availability of enlightenment potions = good. I might even make !enlight deeper items now, and increase their appearance rate so they will be more common while not making early game not so dangerous.

smite replaces annihilation
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As mentioned in the chardump, I thought it was too powerful. Though in retrospect, it's actually not all that bad. The bigger problem is some monsters not having push past. I might bump up the mana cost a bit. 12-15 seems about right.

Don't worry, I will revisit it soon. A minor 15% or so decrease in dmg, and I will make it slightly less mana efficient than OoD (you pay for higher dmg/rnd). 220avg/12 maybe ...

I think I got all the major changes. This was before ewert's LoS trap detection, so I didn't test that. I'll add more if I think of them.

Thanks.

**ewert** · November 1, 2010, 15:35

Regarding gold drops, I thought about it and really a linear progression is not that bad, because well 50 is 5 times 10 and 100 is just two times 50, so a linear progression is in itself of course relatively nonlinear ... Avg gold drops are now testing with about five times that of Vanilla. Digged gold is now triple the "level", since it is now a linear formula though that is a solid triple the value straight up.

Also changed smite to average 210 versus evil and 10 mana cost, which is about +20% dmg per spell and +20% manacost per damage compared to Orb of Draining.

**fizzix** · November 1, 2010, 16:37

Originally posted by ewert

It is a simple pit+ / unique check. Dangerroom checks for 0/1, unique adds +2 (2 or 3). From my testing it seems to be working (though I had missed non-out-of-depth uniques, not sure if you have that as it was a fix later on). I might probably steal npp-style "delayed" feeling for artifacts or artifact-quality high end items. But tbh ... I actually don't see the need for that.

Ok, that's what I gathered. I think there needs to be some finer granularity in this. Basically these are the things that might be interest on a level and the range where they are interesting.

I think we both agree that two axes need to be used. Let's assume your two axes of 'dangerroom' and 'unique/OoD monster/(artifact?)'. If dangerroom is boolean then it needs to not make orc pits interesting at dlevel 80. Ideally I'd prefer it to distinguish somewhat between pit/vault/mulitple vaults/greater vault although it's possible that this granularity can be entirely placed on the second axis.

For the Unique/OoD monster/artifact/OoD item axis, finer granularity is needed. Essentially this is your 'do I want to explore this level' rating. OoD items and artifacts need to boost this way up. A single artifact on the level should make it high, multiple artifacts should make it very high. Obviously, vaults will increase this rating greatly. Not putting the artifacts or items in really defeats the purpose of the whole rating system, because that's the prime motivation for searching a level! If you get an interesting feeling, you should want to figure out what caused it.

I may try a warrior character with the more recent changes. Although, I still haven't figured out a way to nicely merge my vault changes with yours...

**ewert** · November 1, 2010, 17:01

Or we could make pits be level dependant like vaults, so that orc pits just are not there after dlvl 60 or so maybe. Or ... we could just leave it be, and orc pits will be "bummer". :P I mean people clear troll pits too even in the end, right? Atleast I do. Everything else retains their danger levels due to high end monsters being created as well.

So, is there ANY other matter than orc pits that make a pit/vault not a "tough or interesting room" in the end game?

I can't comment much on the exploration part, as I never relied on the feeling before and never thus got into any sort of "lets go explore this level, yay!" Only superbs made me want to search for the pit/vault, or if none present maybe bump into interesting item before exploring most of the level to find the pit/vault. Hunting uniques was a pain ... So those two are done with this feeling type.

I can see the lure of exploration for some people who like to find on-floor items (I rather kill kill kill), so I guess am gonna steal npp-style delayed feeling and make an item/artifact sensor out of it. It will have pretty steep requirement to trigger an item feeling (artifact, top 3 weapon, extremely rare items or markedly out of depth item).

As for finer info on dangerroom, I thought about it in the initial discussion, and I am myself against it. Knowledge that there is something is enough to make you want to check it out. If you KNOW what it is, you will ignore those you do not like, and that is IMHO too much information.

**fizzix** · November 1, 2010, 18:19

Originally posted by ewert

Or we could make pits be level dependant like vaults, so that orc pits just are not there after dlvl 60 or so maybe. Or ... we could just leave it be, and orc pits will be "bummer". :P I mean people clear troll pits too even in the end, right? Atleast I do. Everything else retains their danger levels due to high end monsters being created as well.

I have no problem with this. If I'm hunting stat gain potions I'm clearing orc/giant/troll pits. If I'm not, I avoid them. With the new drop values, they just are not worth it.

Zoos are never worth it, neither are jelly pits. Zoos can be dangerous though.

I guess we'll have to disagree on level feelings. I certainly think that the 'good item here' should be tripped a lot more common than what you are suggesting. I recommend using the power ratings and comparing that on a per-level basis for weapons.

**ewert** · November 1, 2010, 20:22

Yeah well I am bit on the side of "items from monster drops or dangerrooms", so my opinion is bit skewed on normal floor items and thus maybe a bit against "exploration when level feeling says something good is somewhere".

I guess a midly granulated delayed item feeling could be a good compromise. Have both the "there's some wicked shiznitz somewhere" and "I think there's something nice somewhere".

**ewert** · November 1, 2010, 20:23

Btw, as you are looking at the pits/vaults stuff, did you get around to putting in something nice in zoos, jelly pits and graveyards yet? =) Maybe a guaranteed OoD great item? =P

**fizzix** · November 1, 2010, 22:06

Originally posted by ewert

Btw, as you are looking at the pits/vaults stuff, did you get around to putting in something nice in zoos, jelly pits and graveyards yet? =) Maybe a guaranteed OoD great item? =P

No, I may get to it tonight though...

I was thinking of just a very simple probabilistic approach of items being created and placed randomly in the vault. This is the easiest approach because vaults are filled in square by square. At each point, also determine if there is an item there, make it OoD, and maybe make it good.

the only trick is how to do this introducing as few new constants as possible.

Graveyards will have lots of goodies because they are difficult to clear.

**fizzix** · November 2, 2010, 00:43

I added items to the nests now. There should be on average 3 items in jelly pits, 10 items in animal pits and 20 items in graveyards. Every item has a 1/3 chance to be good.

I don't think there should be any need to put more items in graveyards, because actually killing the monsters will give you lots of drops anyway. I'm not sure this is enough items in zoos though...

It's a start at least.

**Nick** · November 2, 2010, 00:54

Originally posted by fizzix

I don't think there should be any need to put more items in graveyards, because actually killing the monsters will give you lots of drops anyway.

...plus the Dreads will pick all the stuff up and bring it to you.

**fizzix** · November 2, 2010, 01:22

Originally posted by Nick

...plus the Dreads will pick all the stuff up and bring it to you.

good point...If I wanted to be anal about it, I'd place all the items under drujes, deathmolds and quylthulgs. That's too much work though.

**buzzkill** · November 2, 2010, 02:01

You could bury the items, though I'm not quite sure how.

**fizzix** · November 2, 2010, 02:52

Originally posted by buzzkill

You could bury the items, though I'm not quite sure how.

Dreads already have this problem in vaults. If you're careful you can get a lot of items out of a vault by 'proper use' of dreads. Honestly, the solution lies more in not giving pass wall monsters the ability to pick up items. Or at least, not allowing monsters to pick up items of some power level relative to their own.

**buzzkill** · November 2, 2010, 03:42

What if the items were in a chest-type container such as "a dirt mound" that is undetectable by dTreasure and cannot be picked up, revealed only by LOS.

ivanilla experience

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