A horrific noob's commentated 'band adventures

[smbhax]

Angband \\ Old Man Willow, Mirkwood Spiders, Gorbag, hydras, & a tricky banshee

https://youtu.be/mFhDc0tz52I

Level 27 human warrior at dungeon level 20:

0:00 - start
2:49 - cold hounds
13:52 - Old Man Willow
21:42 - L21: Mirkwood Spiders
37:51 - Gorbag, the Orc Captain
47:05 - town
57:45 - L22 - hydras; banshee trouble
1:02:34 - wrap-up & what's next!

Can't seem to find wand/staff recharge scrolls so I guess just give 'em to a shop and buy 'em back charged back up? And then uh don't accidentally pick them up together with another that has no charges and get the charges suddenly split across the two. = P

[smbhax]

Hengband \\ High-Elf Weaponsmith start! But watch that first quest! = oo

https://youtu.be/bbgOEMpc2pY

0:00 - start
2:00 - character creation - random!
7:40 - High-Elf Weaponsmith in Outpost
11:17 - "O" - "Power" menu
11:47 - "M" - Essences & enchanting menu!
21:50 - More "M" essences menus
27:03 - Yeek cave
36:50 - Dr.Volga
42:04 - Greater Hell-Beast
56:14 - Essence extraction & enchantment
1:05:37 - IDing & selling in town
1:22:38 - Dump Witness quest
1:24:48 - restart ;_;
1:30:08 - Yeek cave redux
1:41:30 - Laika, the greatest beast of USSR
2:01:41 - Poltergeist
2:03:54 - Town
2:13:44 - Katana
2:18:34 - wrap-up & what's next!

Oh I forgot to try that "O" key "Judgment" power (11:30) again once I hit level 5.

I was thinking of reporting the inclusion of Hato Poppo, whose description calls him a "natural human," in the Bird category of the monster Knowledge base (1:31:59) as a bug, but I think I enjoy imagining him as a secret bird man.

I generally hate "crafting" in games but this weaponsmithing thing actually seems kind of cool so far. It also seems like something that could just end up way overpowered, but there's a ton I don't know about, like, what are the limits on how many enchantments an item can have, what enchantments can go on what items, and so forth.

I looked back at my previous play of the "Danger level: 5" "Dump Witness" quest https://youtu.be/otPi3xAh5VI?t=7816 , and there is indeed a Cloaker hiding in the middle of the main room--that's a level 13 monster. It didn't kill my Barbarian Berserker because they were a) level 19 and b) had an item of Free Action, so it couldn't paralyze them--but I still don't think it's very cool to ambush a noob with a level 13 monster in a "level 5" quest, and probably the very first quest they take; it was making THIS noob think they just shouldn't try quests anymore; one moment the level 6 weaponsmith was checking out the "items" scattered around the room, no monster in sight in the room, and the next they were dead on the floor, having been ambushed, paralyzed, and killed by the cloaker--a monster over twice their level--in the blink of an eye.

Jeez and that Killer Bee, the monster behind glass in the adjoining room, is level 9. How is this "Danger level 5"??

I've reported this to the Hengband team as an issue to look at: https://github.com/hengband/hengband/issues/2472 . They may just tell me "get good, noob," which is legit; or possibly they *like* teaching the player a harsh lesson at the beginning, to try to teach you to do things I'm too lazy to do, like constantly using detection spells/abilities, or making sure to get an item with Free Action before you do anything at all (although I'm now level 8 and don't think I've seen one yet, drat).

Guess I ain't gonna try that quest again until I get something with Free Action. I suppose I could try shooting the cloaker from across the room with the crossbow I have now...but if it survived that barrage it could still paralyze and kill me. Yeah better get Free Action first.

Update:

Ahah and the developers' reply actually covered "get good, noob," schooling the player, and using a ranged weapon:

Mimics are NOT move, so player can easily defeat them by long-range attacks.
The game has a myriad of enemies that can easily bury the unprepared player.
This quest is responsible for conveying the "die and learn" balance of the entire game.
"danger level" 5 is intended.

So I guess you're supposed to use enemy detection of some sort? Not that my level 6 character had any sort of detection capability yet anyway. I dunno, this whole bit seems like a big turn off--on quests, at least. I wonder if Hengband's random dungeons are going for "die and learn" balance as well--if they are, I may just have to stick to Angband, which has a fairly explicit don't-require-lore mantra, and in recent years (decades?) at least has gone for a "don't just kill the player with something new instantly" approach to balance, which is much closer to my preference.

[Cryomaniac]

I think that quest is supposed to teach you that mimics exist and you can discover them from distance by looking - 'l' command would tell you that's not an ordinary cloak, and it'd disappear once you break line of sight (unlike an item). Hengband quests already could be tough for their level - Thieves Quest has 2 Bandits (level 8 in level 5 quest); Sewers has White Crocodile (level 20+, nasty melee), devilfishes (breath attacks); Doom Quest I is far tougher without double fire resist; Mimic's Treasure and Cloning Pits can be very nasty for unprepared players, and Royal Crypt has a deathtrap that could work against endgame characters as well.

EDIT: Also, you can throw torches for significant damage in early game ('v' command). Buy some from General Store (use lantern as light source anyway) and use them deal with those mimics.

[smbhax]

I think that quest is supposed to teach you that mimics exist and you can discover them from distance by looking - 'l' command would tell you that's not an ordinary cloak, and it'd disappear once you break line of sight (unlike an item). Hengband quests already could be tough for their level - Thieves Quest has 2 Bandits (level 8 in level 5 quest); Sewers has White Crocodile (level 20+, nasty melee), devilfishes (breath attacks); Doom Quest I is far tougher without double fire resist; Mimic's Treasure and Cloning Pits can be very nasty for unprepared players, and Royal Crypt has a deathtrap that could work against endgame characters as well.

EDIT: Also, you can throw torches for significant damage in early game ('v' command). Buy some from General Store (use lantern as light source anyway) and use them deal with those mimics.

I noticed one instance of the line of sight thing in retrospect, playing my recording back, but it wasn't enough to catch my attention at the time. The dev also said you could tell it wasn't an item with "l" or "x," but I don't normally "l" or "x" all the items in a room before I walk over them, which tells me what they are anyway. Do people usually do that?

Anyway now that I know quests are in at least some cases purposefully set up to assassinate the player, I'm just going to avoid them. ; )

[Cryomaniac]

I noticed one instance of the line of sight thing in retrospect, playing my recording back, but it wasn't enough to catch my attention at the time. The dev also said you could tell it wasn't an item with "l" or "x," but I don't normally "l" or "x" all the items in a room before I walk over them, which tells me what they are anyway. Do people usually do that?

Anyway now that I know quests are in at least some cases purposefully set up to assassinate the player, I'm just going to avoid them. ; )

You should 'l'/'x' items that are potentially dangerous - Death Swords/Cloakers in early game, Raal's Tomes in midgame. Also, don't stay away from quests - once you know their tricks, they're a great way to boost your character through early game.

[smbhax]

You should 'l'/'x' items that are potentially dangerous - Death Swords/Cloakers in early game, Raal's Tomes in midgame. Also, don't stay away from quests - once you know their tricks, they're a great way to boost your character through early game.

Ew, hm. Well the particular problem with this one cloaker is that it's a level 13 monster in a level "5" quest. Not too likely to encounter that kind of severe disparity in a random level, I hope.

I don't really care about boosting my character, I don't actually want to "beat" games I like, I want them to keep going. I'd skip the Morgoth or whoever quest if I could. Not into "die and learn" content, and not that interested in non-procedural content anyway.

[Thraalbee]

It is fine that you don't like quests, they are all easily avoided except the final two. However, a lot of people do like them. My understanding is this:

Quests bring variation to the game -- tired of descending the dungeons, take a break and do a quest or two

Quests offer high risk/reward for the player looking for a quick boost of power -- this reduces tedium of slow progress of just diving

Quests offer interesting challenges. Many are "impossible" the first time you run them but the fixed setting allows for trying new strategies until you eventually learn how to meet the challenge. Personally I enjoy the level 50+ quests in FrogComposband much more than the final two fights. For instance, I recently took a wrong downstair ending up in the Royal Crypt (level 70? quest) with a level 34 character and made it out alive without failing the quest. I din't get the really sweet loot, but still a very memorable moment and great satisfaction.

And the thing is, if quests were tuned to be of "normal" difficulty you would soon do them without looking and devs could just as well replace them with a lottery - enter, get random loot, get out.

[wobbly]

"Dump Witness" is a pretty stupid quest. Either you die because you don't know it or shoot a bunch of immobile stuff for free xp and then collect the loot. Most of the other quests are better.

[Cryomaniac]

"Dump Witness" is a pretty stupid quest. Either you die because you don't know it or shoot a bunch of immobile stuff for free xp and then collect the loot. Most of the other quests are better.

I think it was intended to serve as a 'springboard' for weaker characters that can't do Thieves Quest from the start and have to grind on white worm masses for early game experience.

[smbhax]

I haven't found myself having to grind at all in the beginning of Hengband. The one time I went all the way through the Yeek cave beginning dungeon so far, I came out massively over-leveled, having done zero quests.

(Then I went back and did the beginning quests and, since their scripted content didn't scale, found them to be no challenge, with useless rewards. The "lesson" of that first quest was lost entirely, because the cloaker bounced off my level-19-character-with-free-action and died immediately. Free action also made Old Man Willow, another early quest, feel silly. I suppose this is also pointing to the on/off of the free action buff being a bit goofy--but thank goodness; obviously some developer knew that paralyzing the player just sucks.)

Elevated risk and elevated reward for optional side quests is fine. What strikes me as poor game design and an excellent way to ensure that many players quit your game and never come back is giving such a side quest an intentionally misleading difficulty rating, and purposefully setting it up to assassinate the player as a way to "teach" them a lesson--in a permadeath game, no less. This is going to lose you players, as a lot of people will decide they have better ways to spend their time.

[Cryomaniac]

I haven't found myself having to grind at all in the beginning of Hengband. The one time I went all the way through the Yeek cave beginning dungeon so far, I came out massively over-leveled, having done zero quests.

(Then I went back and did the beginning quests and, since their scripted content didn't scale, found them to be no challenge, with useless rewards. The "lesson" of that first quest was lost entirely, because the cloaker bounced off my level-19-character-with-free-action and died immediately. Free action also made Old Man Willow, another early quest, feel silly. I suppose this is also pointing to the on/off of the free action buff being a bit goofy--but thank goodness; obviously some developer knew that paralyzing the player just sucks.)

Elevated risk and elevated reward for optional side quests is fine. What strikes me as poor game design and an excellent way to ensure that many players quit your game and never come back is giving such a side quest an intentionally misleading difficulty rating, and purposefully setting it up to assassinate the player as a way to "teach" them a lesson--in a permadeath game, no less. This is going to lose you players, as a lot of people will decide they have better ways to spend their time.

You're probably playing melee classes, they can handle pure melee combat in Thieves Quest already; I was talking about more fragile spellcasters. Also, original Angband already had nasty beginner traps - Floating Eyes can para-lock you right on level 1, the dog uniques are very nasty for weaker characters, Hummerhorn swarms can confusion lock you, and going below level 40 without poison resist can get you instakilled by a Drolem/AMHD.

[smbhax]

It is fine that you don't like quests, they are all easily avoided except the final two.

That's good to know! I wasn't sure.

Personally I enjoy the level 50+ quests in FrogComposband much more than the final two fights. For instance, I recently took a wrong downstair ending up in the Royal Crypt (level 70? quest) with a level 34 character and made it out alive without failing the quest. I din't get the really sweet loot, but still a very memorable moment and great satisfaction.

That definitely sounds like a rewarding moment; being a noob I stumble through stuff like that in the random dungeons fairly regularly. ^_^

Speaking of Frog, the reason I'm not playing that game--while sometimes watching expert angband.live players seemingly effortlessly dicing their way through achingly cool-looking Frog maps--is that I found even the beginning newbie dungeon experience to be packed with incredibly wonky game balance among the races, classes, and AI monsters (and what's with all the duplicate staircases in there? : p); it feels like almost no balancing of the huge amount of content in Frog has been attempted, and the player is just expected to know how things work, and what to avoid--either by reading about it in advance or doing a whole lot of learning by dying...which is what I was doing, because I prefer to see a game for myself. Hengband's base game experience so far has been pretty well balanced by comparison--not nearly as well as vanilla Angband's, mind you, but enough to be more or less manageable most of the time--which is maybe another reason why this quest thing stood out like such a sore thumb.

[smbhax]

You're probably playing melee classes, they can handle pure melee combat in Thieves Quest already; I was talking about more fragile spellcasters.

Ah, I see. Yeah, the random class selection I've been doing so far has given me all fighter-category characters. I suspect I'm going to do far worse with spellcasters because of my impatience, but it'll be interesting to find that out. ; )

Also, original Angband already had nasty beginner traps - Floating Eyes can para-lock you right on level 1, the dog uniques are very nasty for weaker characters, Hummerhorn swarms can confusion lock you, and going below level 40 without poison resist can get you instakilled by a Drolem/AMHD.

I knew about some of that and that's why I qualified my earlier comparison to vanilla Angband with "in recent years." I've also played some Rogue and UMoria, which of course were even more cruel. Hengband is an old enough variant that it inherited some of the older, meaner stuff, and the devs seem to have stuck to that more ruthless attitude. Which is fine, I just wasn't sure what their current design intent was for the quests; I'm glad I found out before I got really far into a character and then got them whacked in some intentionally murderous quest.

[Cryomaniac]

Hengband is an old enough variant that it inherited some of the older, meaner stuff, and the devs seem to have stuck to that more ruthless attitude. Which is fine, I just wasn't sure what their current design intent was for the quests; I'm glad I found out before I got really far into a character and then got them whacked in some intentionally murderous quest.

Keep in mind Hengband is maintained by Japanese community, and the devs don't have much contact with vanilla Angband developers. Those nasty quests originated back from Zangband; at least Dump Witness is very early game, Royal Crypt can be a deathtrap for endgame characters.

[smbhax]

Keep in mind Hengband is maintained by Japanese community, and the devs don't have much contact with vanilla Angband developers. Those nasty quests originated back from Zangband; at least Dump Witness is very early game, Royal Crypt can be a deathtrap for endgame characters.

Yeah, and I'm not surprised they aren't interested in changing it at this point. (I think they should and that it would help the game's audience grow--but developers and fans become set in their ways like anyone else, and I'm not going to argue with them over it.) The dev who responded to me on this issue was the remaining one of the four official Hengband team members with whom I had yet to interact; I was surprised by how excellent this member's English is--really remarkable, and, as usual, puts my "I speak American" self to shame. ; )

"Don't have much contact with vanilla Angband developers" isn't quite accurate: backwardsEric has been helping out there pretty regularly--not on game balance, though.