ammo doesn't combine correctly

[CliffStamp]

The maximum stack size for any item is now 40 instead of 99. This only usually affects ammo, but it applies to all item types. The goal was to nerf the quiver, which was intended to make carrying small ammo stacks worthwhile, not to make you able to carry arbitrary amounts of ammo.

The problem now is that it makes it worse for low level characters who could use one slot to carry 99 0,0 arrows. Now that needs three slots. The quiver + new stack size actually causes the loss of two slots for starting characters who rely on bows. In fact early bow heavy characters who are not town diving could take two 99 stacks, this would now take up five slots which is a bit silly.

Late game it doesn't mean anything because you are focused and just have 1-2 high in piles, one of acid and one of holy might, maybe one of demon/animal and just hunt accordingly. You don't carry all of them at the same time, simply with swap weapons. You may carry a boc of kill undead/dragon, or artifact of ele_imm, but you are not going to carry a half a dozen swaps, just 1-2 and use accordingly.

[Derakon]

Late game it doesn't mean anything because you are focused and just have 1-2 high in piles, one of acid and one of holy might, maybe one of demon/animal and just hunt accordingly. You don't carry all of them at the same time, simply with swap weapons. You may carry a boc of kill undead/dragon, or artifact of ele_imm, but you are not going to carry a half a dozen swaps, just 1-2 and use accordingly.

So what happens when you've used that stack of Holy Might ammo a bit and a bunch of the bolts have been lost, so you're down to only 10 bolts and they're still using a full inventory slot?

I agree that the early game has been nerfed, and I admit that's not something I'd thought about before now. I'm inclined to say that the early game was generally too easy anyway, so making it harder is not a bad thing -- but then again, I like the status quo, so I'm biased.

[Magnate]

The problem now is that it makes it worse for low level characters who could use one slot to carry 99 0,0 arrows. Now that needs three slots. The quiver + new stack size actually causes the loss of two slots for starting characters who rely on bows. In fact early bow heavy characters who are not town diving could take two 99 stacks, this would now take up five slots which is a bit silly.

Late game it doesn't mean anything because you are focused and just have 1-2 high in piles, one of acid and one of holy might, maybe one of demon/animal and just hunt accordingly. You don't carry all of them at the same time, simply with swap weapons. You may carry a boc of kill undead/dragon, or artifact of ele_imm, but you are not going to carry a half a dozen swaps, just 1-2 and use accordingly.

But early game characters are not nearly as worried about inv space as late game characters - they haven't found much yet. So while I accept the point that carrying ~200 arrows on your first trip now takes 2.5x as many slots as before, I'm not sure this is a real problem. By the time your inv is full you've used lots of them anyway, and are perfectly happy to drop the rest to make space before recalling, knowing that they're cheap as chips and always available in town.

Late game I think you are still working on the basis that pretty much unlimited enchants were available for chars to combine arrows into neat high stacks. This isn't true any more (enchants are not sold in town), and the quiver enables you to carry your 6 arrows of slay undead (+5, +6) along with your 11 arrows of slay undead (+6, +8) and your 13 arrows of slay undead (+9, +4) in a single slot, instead of requiring three.

[Egavactip]

Yeah, but you did damage at range and presumably a lot of it. If you want to use a lot of arrows, you'll have to use a lot of inventory slots. That's just the way it works.

Actually, no, I did not. I used almost all of those against a mold. That's why it is so ridiculous.

And re "that's just the way it works," that should not BE the way it works. It is silly to redesign and vastly weaken the entire quiver system because of the fights against two specific uniques.

[Derakon]

Actually, no, I did not. I used almost all of those against a mold. That's why it is so ridiculous.

Ah, part of your problem here may be that I don't think v4 archery has been fixed damage-wise yet, so it's very weak. Ordinarily in extreme circumstances -- shooting at a Shimmering Mold (one step below Death Mold, 144 average HP) with an unenchanted x2 shortbow and unenchanted 1d4 arrows -- you'd need 29 arrows to kill the thing, of which 11 would break. There's simply no way that you could be losing 39 arrows to breakage in that situation.

[CliffStamp]

...and the quiver enables you to carry your 6 arrows of slay undead (+5, +6) along with your 11 arrows of slay undead (+6, +8) and your 13 arrows of slay undead (+9, +4) in a single slot, instead of requiring three.

Yes, that part is nice as otherwise you just dropped all of those as it was not worth carrying them for a fight. Early game though, damage is down, and a lot of rods, staves, etc. can be useful until you get the uber ones later on. Especially if you are moving fast as then basically anything is useful so removing five slots isn't trivial.

Re - bow damage, that would be why Smeagol ignored 20 arrows. I was wondering why his HP had suddenly jumped to an extreme level.

[jevansau]

In V I find a 40 item per slot quiver about right, assuming that even a ranger should not be using arrows against weaker monsters.

In current V4, if I read the source correctly, base damage isn't too bad, but it increases much slower with improving equipment than other damage dealing methods. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the current formula is:
Missile damage from dice-roll x (launcher multiplier + Prowess multiplier + Brand/Slay multiplier)
I'm not sure where the Prowess multiplier comes from, but I suspect just from launcher and ammo.

If this is correct it makes high dice ammo essential to get decent overall damage.

Regards,
Jonathan

[Magnate]

In V I find a 40 item per slot quiver about right, assuming that even a ranger should not be using arrows against weaker monsters.

In current V4, if I read the source correctly, base damage isn't too bad, but it increases much slower with improving equipment than other damage dealing methods. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the current formula is:
Missile damage from dice-roll x (launcher multiplier + Prowess multiplier + Brand/Slay multiplier)
I'm not sure where the Prowess multiplier comes from, but I suspect just from launcher and ammo.

If this is correct it makes high dice ammo essential to get decent overall damage.

Regards,
Jonathan

EDIT: Ooops, just seen a new thread on this. Ignore what's below!

It's not going to stay like this though. The launcher mult will be replaced by the heft of the launcher (== draw), so the ammo will need rescaling by a factor of about four.

What we're not sure about yet is whether we'll need a separate concept of "missile prowess" for the amount of damage done with archery. (It's pretty clear that missile finesse is a separate skill from melee finesse - and the code already has these skills separated.)

I think we probably favour simplicity over marginal added realism, so we could stick with one prowess score in the first instance. If you're strong your blows will hit harder, and your arrows will fly faster.

Note that the functions of fin + prow are reversed for crossbows: prowess determines how many shots you get (because it's how fast you can wind the launcher), and finesse determines how much damage you do (because it's all about where the bolt hits). We could in fact ignore this latter effect entirely and have crossbows as flat-damage weapons unaffected by skills.

Anyway, archery is still in need of quite a bit of work, so please don't get too focused on the current mechanics.