ammo doesn't combine correctly

[saarn]

I have a bunch of average arrows that I acquired at different times. They don't combine in my quiver or my pack, but continue to exist as separate stacks. Seems like I should have one stack of 51 arrows (1d7) rather than a stack of 11 and a stack of 40.

Also, as a minor point, it would be more convenient for the quiver slots to be 1->0 rather than 0->9 as this would match most keyboards ( 0 == "ten")

[Derakon]

The maximum stack size for any item is now 40 instead of 99. This only usually affects ammo, but it applies to all item types. The goal was to nerf the quiver, which was intended to make carrying small ammo stacks worthwhile, not to make you able to carry arbitrary amounts of ammo.

[saarn]

ok. There's some misleading help text in the shops that claims that up to 99 units of ammo can be combined into a single slot in the quiver. I guess that threw me for a loop.

[Magnate]

ok. There's some misleading help text in the shops that claims that up to 99 units of ammo can be combined into a single slot in the quiver. I guess that threw me for a loop.

Oooh, another good catch - thanks. That's in hints.txt.

[Egavactip]

How exactly is reducing the number of arrows in the quiver from 99 to 40 an improvement as opposed to a detriment to the game? That would seem to greatly hurt certain character classes by causing them to use up many equipment slots in order to have a decent number of arrows. It also greatly hurts a character's ability to use different ammo types depending on the circumstances.

[Thraalbee]

The thing is it was very easy to kill S and M if you had 100s of holy might and slay evil arrows and excellent shooter. Btdt with a priest. Safest battle in game. Almost. I think 40 is a good amount. 99 is unreasonable

[Egavactip]

The thing is it was very easy to kill S and M if you had 100s of holy might and slay evil arrows and excellent shooter. Btdt with a priest. Safest battle in game. Almost. I think 40 is a good amount. 99 is unreasonable

That is an argument for making those items much more rare (or weaker), not an argument for changing the whole quiver system!!!

[Derakon]

How exactly is reducing the number of arrows in the quiver from 99 to 40 an improvement as opposed to a detriment to the game? That would seem to greatly hurt certain character classes by causing them to use up many equipment slots in order to have a decent number of arrows. It also greatly hurts a character's ability to use different ammo types depending on the circumstances.

Would you rather go back to the system we had before the quiver, when every stack of ammo used a full slot, no matter how many of them there were? The purpose of the quiver was to remove the penalty for using small stacks of ammo, not to completely remove the inventory pressure of carrying the stuff. The first version of the quiver (with the 99 ammo per slot used system) made inventory management completely trivial, which makes the game less interesting.

[Egavactip]

Would you rather go back to the system we had before the quiver, when every stack of ammo used a full slot, no matter how many of them there were? The purpose of the quiver was to remove the penalty for using small stacks of ammo, not to completely remove the inventory pressure of carrying the stuff. The first version of the quiver (with the 99 ammo per slot used system) made inventory management completely trivial, which makes the game less interesting.

I'd rather keep the system currently in Vanilla, which works well, and I have not played any game of Vanilla in which that system made "inventory management trivial." Not by a long shot, given that by the end game, I am always pressed to have a single free slot. Basically, a 40-arrow quiver just means you won't be able to stay underground very long if you are dependent on missile weapons.

[Magnate]

I'd rather keep the system currently in Vanilla, which works well, and I have not played any game of Vanilla in which that system made "inventory management trivial." Not by a long shot, given that by the end game, I am always pressed to have a single free slot. Basically, a 40-arrow quiver just means you won't be able to stay underground very long if you are dependent on missile weapons.

I'm afraid you're in a minority here. The widely held view is that the quiver currently in 3.3.x is far too generous. Stacks of 40 is an alternative to no quiver at all, which was the case for the first ~20 years of the game's life.

[fizzix]

The only thing that I would consider would be to be slightly less cruel for breakage. Maybe something like arrows that hit go into the monster inventory but can't break. So you have to kill the monster to get the arrows back.

99 for a quiver slot is just way too much. The quiver is incredibly overpowered. We first tried 30 but that seemed too low, 40 seems about right.

[Egavactip]

I don't see how it is "right." Right after my last post I went back into the dungeon and used 39 arrows in a single battle. I had to come right back up and get more arrows.

[Philip]

Yeah, but you did damage at range and presumably a lot of it. If you want to use a lot of arrows, you'll have to use a lot of inventory slots. That's just the way it works.

[Derakon]

You have, broadly speaking, four main options for offense: melee, spellcasting, missiles, and magic devices.

Melee requires you to be in melee range, which means that every turn that the enemy would normally spend moving towards you (at least 50% of their turns for the vast majority of enemies) will instead be spent on dealing damage to you. Unless you're killing your enemies in a single round of combat, this means taking a lot of damage that could otherwise be avoided. However, melee damage is typically very consistent and has very high damage potential.

Spellcasting requires mana, and is thus in limited supply. For the hybrid classes it's also typically both expensive and unreliable, due to high failure rates. However, the damage is very consistent (always hitting, and most high-level spells do flat damage), and you can avoid melee range.

Magic devices require inventory slots for the items, the items have limited charges, and when you try to recharge them they may explode. However, it's otherwise completely free, ranged, and the damage can be very high if you have good magic device skill.

Missile attacks require ammo, and thus put constraints on your inventory. They also don't always hit, can't shoot over intervening enemies, and have a lower maximum range than other ranged attacks (limited by your launcher, and hit rate goes down slightly with distance). However, they have the highest potential damage per unit time of any attack, thanks to branding and +shots, they let you avoid melee range, and they require no mana to use.

If you're going to focus your offense on any one of these four sources of damage, then you'll need to make concessions. Melee users need to emphasize CON and AC more, and can't wield weapons that have poor damage. Spellcasters need high INT to increase their mana pools. Magic device users have to devote several slots to their wands. And missile users have to devote several slots to their ammo.

I don't see why this is unbalanced.

[buzzkill]

How about ammo not be sold in town. Then there would be no need to constrain the quiver. I originally posted that jokingly, but actually like the idea a little after having read it. Certainly not for V.