Mage Spells

[Cold_Heart]

Nerfing things is never a good solution.

[Derakon]

Nerfing things is never a good solution.

So every time we find something is overpowered, the answer is to power up everything else, then?

[Cold_Heart]

So every time we find something is overpowered, the answer is to power up everything else, then?

That, and also making a game a bit more difficult in some other aspect, is one good way to do it.

[ekolis]

So every time we find something is overpowered, the answer is to power up everything else, then?

Heh, I guess that's how old versions of Angband got characters with HP in the tens of thousands... thanks to whoever fixed that!

[Derakon]

That, and also making a game a bit more difficult in some other aspect, is one good way to do it.

I hope you realize that I was being sarcastic. If you have a situation in which the game is generally balanced except for one overpowered thing, then nerfing that overpowered thing is exactly equivalent to powering up everything else, except that the nerf is far easier to implement than the powerup -- and thus, less likely to introduce other over powered things. Nerfs are every bit as important as buffs when it comes to balancing games.

Moreover, a game in which every imbalance is addressed by powerups will have a very different feel than a game in which powerups and nerfs are used more even-handedly. It'd be like the difference between a tabletop roleplaying game where everyone gets fully kitted-out in magical gear and one in which the entire party has a single magical item between them that they must carefully treasure. Both can lead to satisfying gaming experiences, but they're very different gaming experiences.

In this particular case, it's not obvious that CLW is necessarily overpowered, but it is true that it's overpowered by comparison with CMW and CSW. Thus a nerf isn't necessarily a terrible idea.

[Philip]

I sincerely hope Cold_Heart is joking. Nerfing is always a good solution if one thing is overpowered, it's usually a good solution if 3/4 of all the objects of a certain type are overpowered.

[Therem Harth]

Cold_Heart: ToME 2 did that, and it didn't really work. See for instance Melkor followers' infamous auto-Curse ability. Or any Alchemist. This guy in particular should drive the point home.

Mind, T2 was a very fun game. But IMO it would be even more fun if some things had been nerfed early on. Instead the power levels were allowed to explode, pushing some classes into anime superhero territory... And leaving others in the dust.

[mixer]

I believe that biasing the learning of spells but still random would give the result that I wish and give the balance that you wish for. I agree that the middle heals cost too much for use in the middle of combat. I do normally play a Dwarvern Priest. I have been playing this game for over 24 years and I remember having to dropping books to be given the wanted spell so definitley don't want to go that way.

[buzzkill]

There should be one general (HP) healing spell and it should scale with character level.

[Cold_Heart]

There should be one general (HP) healing spell and it should scale with character level.

This makes sense.

[Derakon]

Having a spell that scales with character level can certainly work, but it's not straightforward to implement well. How do you handle the cost of casting the spell? It should scale with the spell's power, or else you end up with a ridiculously powerful spammable spell. But then you lose the option of paying less for less healing -- unless you want to implement some kind of "how much power do you want to spend" prompt, which would be a completely new interface issue.

I will grant this is more of an issue with attack spells, where you generally want some combination of spells that are good at dealing with weak targets and spells that shove huge amounts of mana around for big damage -- but it still applies to healing spells too.

ToME 2 has spell power scaling with spells, as well as a type of spell where you can choose the power you put into it, but the latter is buggy as hell and the former has a few balance issues.

[buzzkill]

Having a spell that scales with character level can certainly work, but it's not straightforward to implement well. How do you handle the cost of casting the spell? It should scale with the spell's power, or else you end up with a ridiculously powerful spammable spell. But then you lose the option of paying less for less healing -- unless you want to implement some kind of "how much power do you want to spend" prompt, which would be a completely new interface issue.

Healing schemealing. The current reason to use a less effective spell is because it's more mana efficient. A scaling healing spell should (in my perfect world) only be able to be cast at maximum efficacy. It the casters is in need of lesser healing he can quaff potion or rely on regeneration (or go without). That's the down side. The up side is that there are now a number a free spell slots that can be imaginatively filled with useful spells.

[Derakon]

Healing schemealing. The current reason to use a less effective spell is because it's more mana efficient. A scaling healing spell should (in my perfect world) only be able to be cast at maximum efficacy. It the casters is in need of lesser healing he can quaff potion or rely on regeneration (or go without). That's the down side. The up side is that there are now a number a free spell slots that can be imaginatively filled with useful spells.

Well, if that's all the upside you need, there's tons of slots available already:

* Remove Curse
* Teleport
* Chant
* Prayer
* Slow Poison
* Scare Monster
* Sanctuary
* Turn Undead
* Everything in Holy Infusions

And yet even with all these "wasted" spells, priests are still easier than mages.

[ekolis]

And yet even with all these "wasted" spells, priests are still easier than mages.

Likely because priests can actually melee, whereas mages are totally helpless in that regard...

[Philip]

And because of 0% heal, *heal, teleport, teleport away and orb of draining. Mages get somewhat more powerfull damage magic, door creation, teleportation and also have a lot of wasted spells.