Trap changes

[CunningGabe]

One of the things I've been itching to change for a long time is the trap system. ewert has coded up a system that allows for passive trap detection in line-of-sight, and also allows for trap evasion. I am planning to port these changes to v4 and build from there.

In a nutshell, this is what the new system would be:
- Trap detection scrolls, spells, etc would go away entirely.
- You can passively detect traps (and secret doors) up to 3 squares away.
- Your chance to detect a trap is (Searching skill)/(distance) %. That is, you get your full searching skill for traps adjacent to you, half of it for traps 2 squares away, etc.
- Your searching skill is affected by class, race, wis, and int. As you level, it improves.
- While in Searching mode, your speed is reduced by 2, and your search skill is increased by 20%.
- It is possible to avoid the effects of a trap when you walk into the square. The chance is based on your dex, and it is easier if you know the trap is there.

That is more-or-less where ewert's changes end.

Now, along with this are some other changes I have planned:
- Review the list of traps. Summoning and Teleportation will probably change so that they are less deadly.
- Extend the trap/secret door detection to mimics and lurkers.
- Add some more mimics and lurkers.

Eventually, I'd like to add more traps and trap-like features, but I think that is quite difficult with the current terrain system.

Obviously, getting the numbers just right will take some work. How do people feel about this system in general, though? What traps need to be toned down and how if there is no longer an infallible way to detect them?

[Magnate]

At last! There have been SO many threads about traps, it's awesome that someone is going to grapple with it.

Slightly tangentially to your questions, I think we have the following circular problem:

1. If traps do not significantly perturb the player (i.e. neither irritating nor deadly), they are hard to make interesting.

2. If they are really irritating and/or deadly, and the chances of detecting/avoiding them are too low, gameplay worsens with frustration (assuming you allow only one chance to detect each trap, otherwise it encourages grinding)

3. If they are irritating and/or deadly and the chances of detecting/avoiding them are too high, it is hard to make them interesting again.

So I don't envy you trying to solve this. But for my two penn'orth, I'd say that both paralysis and blindness traps need to be shorter duration, to give people a slightly better chance of surviving them.

[Derakon]

Yeah, there's been a ton of discussion. I continue to maintain that the best way to handle traps is to not hide them, and make it challenging for the player to work around them -- basically making them into some merger between terrain and stationary monsters. Damage fields, NPP turret traps, sirens (basically shrieker mushroom patches), etc.

Magnate sums up why the hidden-trap thing is so problematic. You have to decide: are players going to be able to detect traps 100% of the time or not? If not, should traps be allowed to kill the player? Answering "yes" to that implies that random unavoidable instadeath is okay; some people are okay with that but personally I am not.

I suppose another possibility would be for the player to always know that a trap is there, but not what the trap will do, so they at least have to decide if they want to take their chances. We want to encourage the player to be making meaningful decisions, after all.

[buzzkill]

1. If traps do not significantly perturb the player (i.e. neither irritating nor deadly), they are hard to make interesting.

Exactly. I like what I read in the OP, the gist of it, but would be wary of taking the bite out of traps even if detection is no longer fool proof. Traps were mostly a joke. Imperfect detection will help to make them somewhat of a hazard. I say implement the detection changes and hold off on the nerfing until rabid complaints of unfair deaths starts pouring in. At least that's what I'd do.

On the other hand. You could split traps in two distinct groups, physical and magical. Summoning and teleportation would be good examples of magical traps. Darts and pits and trap doors, obviously physical. Physical must be found, LoS searching. Magical are harder to find, but can be magically detected, though I'd tone down the volume and tune up the cost of magical trap detection.

[CunningGabe]

Yeah, there's been a ton of discussion. I continue to maintain that the best way to handle traps is to not hide them, and make it challenging for the player to work around them -- basically making them into some merger between terrain and stationary monsters. Damage fields, NPP turret traps, sirens (basically shrieker mushroom patches), etc.

Magnate sums up why the hidden-trap thing is so problematic. You have to decide: are players going to be able to detect traps 100% of the time or not? If not, should traps be allowed to kill the player? Answering "yes" to that implies that random unavoidable instadeath is okay; some people are okay with that but personally I am not.

I suppose another possibility would be for the player to always know that a trap is there, but not what the trap will do, so they at least have to decide if they want to take their chances. We want to encourage the player to be making meaningful decisions, after all.

In the long-run, I agree with you -- I really want an overhaul of the whole trap system. But that's a lot of work, and in the meanwhile, I'll settle for a system that is less dumb then "cast detect traps every time I hit a trap detection border". Porting ewert's changes would take an hour or two.

My goal is for trap detection to not be 100% (unless you optimize for it), but for traps to not be deadly (in isolation).

[dionysian]

Always liked hallucination or amnesia for trap effects that provide plenty of disincentive to setting them off, without leading to too many YASD that make the game less fun.

[Antoine]

I continue to maintain that the most important trap change is to place them in somewhat predictable places so that there is some skill in anticipating where they might be found

[EpicMan]

I like the trap setup in Dungeons of Dredmor:
-Traps are hidden initially, but are always revealed when they are within the player's Trap Sense range (normally one).

Traps can be disarmed, the difficulty based on the trap type and the player's trap disarming ability. Most traps are one-shot, though not all. Failing to disarm a trap always sets it off.

Non-flying monsters can set off traps.

The best traps are basically triggers, with a corresponding turret on a wall. When triggered, the turret fires and arrow / blast / whatever is fired. You can protect yourself by making sure there is something between you and the turret (say, a monster), or even use them against the monsters. These traps are not one-shot, of course.

[jevansau]

If traps are no longer 100% detectable and disarmable, I think the amount of traps will need to be greatly reduced, especially in vaults. A few strategically placed traps is good, a vast mass of them will just make vaults completely impossible.
I remember this being a major issue in early versions of FAY.

[d_m]

I think Gabe should proceed with his changes, since V4 is all about trying things out.

I agree with Derakon that traps which are likely to kill and/or hard to disarm should probably be obvious or detectable. Ideally, I think I'd like some traps to be obvious but hard to disarm/avoid, and others to be hidden but (in general) less dangerous.

That said, I don't mind the idea that "small" traps will be unnoticed 5-10% of the time (where small traps means things that aren't summoning, trap doors, or teleport).

[andrewdoull]

Please ensure that there's no advantage in spamming the 's' key - that is for each location, once you've searched from it by moving into it with searching mode enabled, searching again doesn't reveal more traps.

[ekolis]

Would this involve creation of a new zone, similar to the DTrap zone, which indicates "I've searched here for traps"? Otherwise you might forget where you've searched already, and waste time searching again!

Actually, though, I think you SHOULD be able to find more traps by re-searching previously searched areas, but ONLY if your searching skill has increased in the meantime. (Why should you be penalized for searching early? It doesn't make sense that just because you've searched somewhere once, you can't come back later once your skill has increased and search again to find any traps you missed!)

[Scatha]

Actually, though, I think you SHOULD be able to find more traps by re-searching previously searched areas, but ONLY if your searching skill has increased in the meantime. (Why should you be penalized for searching early? It doesn't make sense that just because you've searched somewhere once, you can't come back later once your skill has increased and search again to find any traps you missed!)

The natural way to implement this mechanic is to have each trap get a random difficulty level assigned on creation (distribution can depend on depth and trap type), and you spot it if your searching (+distance modifier + searching bonus) is ever high enough.

(Sil doesn't actually use that mechanic, but we considered it for a couple of places in the game (Lore master and Cursebreaking, which are currently both automatic successes). The game has a take on traps which is similar to that which is being aimed for here - you are never completely safe, but they shouldn't kill you in isolation; we do allow spending more time searching to give better odds of success, but there's a turn limit on the game, so this isn't abusive.)

Presumably summoning traps would be interesting rather than instant death if set up so that the player always got the next turn before the summoned monsters?

[buzzkill]

Here's yet another approach. (which Scatha just nosed me out on, sort of)

Every trap has a rating from 1 to 100 base (but could be modified higher). This rating indicates the quality of construction and therefore how well disguised or hidden the trap is, not necessarily how powerful or dangerous it is. 1 indicates that it is extraordinarily obvious (reflectors and neon paint), and 100 (or higher) indicates that it's almost entirely unable to be noticed (damn near invisible).

Every character has a detection skill that ranges for 1 to 100 base (but could be modified higher). If your detection skill exceeds the trap's rating, then you notice it every time. A master rogue will never overlook a shoddy trap.

If a characters detection skill is less then the trap's rating then he has a % chance of noticing the trap (player skill) / (trap rating) = (% chance to detect). This would be a one time only check, meaning that only one check for each trap within passive detection range, from each individual gird. One check per grid, per trap. I hope that makes sense in conjunction with the theme laid out in the OP.

The interesting part:

Realistically, traps placed randomly around the dungeon, presumably in haste by previous adventurers of questionable skill and also subject to the ravages of time, would be of lower quality and thus more easily noticed. I'd say that traps near doors or stairs, which while random, have some hint of intelligent placement, would be of a slightly higher quality. Specifically, placed traps, such as those in special rooms would be even better, and vaults would contain the highest quality of trap, placed there by experts to protect the valuables within.

I was also thinking that when a monster moves over a trap, while it shouldn't be able to activate or destroy the trap, could damage it's camouflage making it more noticeable, or make it more noticeable by the visible actions taken to avoid it (jumping over or squeezing around, etc).

The advantages:

1. Randomly placed traps in meaningless locations become easily detected and thus far less dangerous.
2. Stealthy classes will find most in-depth traps. Non-stealthy classes while not being clueless, would fail to find some. Isn't that the point of all this.
3. Traps in vaults will actually be harder to detect, thus more dangerous than other traps. Fewer vault traps will be necessary.
4. If we pair the trap rating to the type of trap (assuming more dangerous trap type such as summoning are rated higher), then we can have a situation where trap that are placed randomly about the dungeon are not only more easily noticed but are also of the less dangerous type.

The numbers (subject to tweaking):

Traps rating = DL*2 base, then further modify by specific placement and damage, and then throw in some random variation.
Character ability = CL*1. Double for stealthy classes. Halve for clumsy classes. Further modify by character race and 'items of searching'.

That's pretty much it. I'd also advocate a similar 'danger level' for traps with a similar 1-100+ rating system. Lots of teleport and summoning traps in dangerous locations such as vaults. Bigger explosions too. While just the opposite would hold true for a trap placed in the middle of an anonymous corridor (for no apparent reason).

I'd also advocate random placement of traps within vaults, or (maybe 1/2 a dozen) identical vault designs with alternate trap placements, cause some people just know way too much about this game.

[Nemesis]

Traps that aren't detectable, especially summoning and teleportation traps but also things like confusion or blind, would discourage players from diving. I don't like that idea at all.