Trap changes

[Taha]

Playing the latest nightly from May 20th. Description and name on the priest spell of find traps doors and stairs are unchanged. Took using a scroll of trap detection to realize that yes, the green DTRAP indicator still worked, and no the spell didn't. Keeping descriptions and names updated is pretty important to playtesting when making backend changes like this. Also, that spell is worth less now.

Preface for the rest of this: I thought the old trap system was a good balance between occasionally interesting and mostly ignored. Detecting traps after the early game was always part of another detection, so not an irritant to me.

I don't understand the goal of making traps in general interesting. Interesting things in the game provide experience, drops, or have a high potential to kill you. Usually 2 out of three. Traps have none of the first two and very little of the third - similar to molds, but less experience and less dangerous.

To get traps to be "interesting" requires increasing the danger or the reward. On the danger side, always visible + effects stay within their square makes that impossible. Deadly + hidden adds random instadeaths, currently discouraged. And changing traps to operate outside their territory (turrets?) is probably too far in variant territory to be backported to vanilla. They already meet the interesting test in the early game for disarming experience / potentially deadly / helpful for id-by-use, but are nearly irrelevant past dlvl 15-20.

Increasing rewards is currently traps in vaults, when you have to disarm and get past to get to good items, and tunneling around is not an option.

I have read through this thread, but don't see any persuasive reasons to think you can make interesting, rewarding, dangerous but not-instadeath traps that remain that way through the end game. It's like making the mold varieties interesting and rewarding to the end - maybe not possible, is it actually worth focusing on? - In the vanilla framework that is, obviously massive changes make it possible.

[saarn]

I find the new trap scheme to be very playable, but traps feel defanged. Playing with rogues, traps never bother me now. I don't think this is the mechanism's fault, because the reason they feel "easier" is because the system is preventing careless errors (whoops, I hit left arrow, not d left arrow. crap). This seems like a positive.

I was wondering if the system might be modified a bit so that perception gets reduced during combat (hitting/being hit by monsters) with some sort of a timer in player turns. This would roughly parallel the idea that the character is too busy fighting things to notice subtle traps. I would imagine the timer working both ways (gradually reducing perception, and requiring some cool down before it returns to normal). With this change, fleeing down an unknown corridor, or teleporting away from monsters and walking around would be a lot more dangerous. If traps could get re-hidden based on current perception, that would be even nastier. . .

[CunningGabe]

The '-' command should toggle auto-alter-on move for one step, if I recall correctly. So if you really want to set off a trap, hit '-' and then walk onto it.

Technically, that doesn't quite work as grinder intends (and as takkaria points out, the command is now 'W'). 'W'alking onto a trap does let you move there without trying to disarm it, but with the current setup, a high dex helps you avoid setting off a trap. So if your dex is high enough and you don't have the time to try several times to disarm a trap, you could just walk onto it and hope that it doesn't trigger.

[takkaria]

The '-' command should toggle auto-alter-on move for one step, if I recall correctly. So if you really want to set off a trap, hit '-' and then walk onto it.

In modern V, the command is 'W' for 'Walk into'.

[Derakon]

The '-' command should toggle auto-alter-on move for one step, if I recall correctly. So if you really want to set off a trap, hit '-' and then walk onto it.

[grinder]

One thing I don't recall being mentioned, which is fairly easy to add and would already have interesting uses is a command to set off a trap on purpose. Even if trap types don't change much or don't start to affect monsters, I can see some scenarios where setting off an earthquake or teleport trap can save you. Making an alarm ring or triggering summon trap can also be tactically interesting (and a bit prone to monster farming...).

[CunningGabe]

With traps, is there any passive detection now, or are we back to Angband 1.0, search, step, search, step, search, etc... Maybe my High Elf Mage is just diving too fast and so not in a 'proper' level range, but I cannot recall ever spotting a trap without actively searching first or walking onto it.

There is passive detection, but some traps are harder to spot than others. The really dangerous ones (like summoning and teleport) aren't hidden at all. Traps that are not very dangerous are better hidden, and some of them you might not find even if you actively search.

Rods of trap detection no longer exist

[Derakon]

I think the presumption is that active trap detection should not be necessary -- any trap that could kill you will be obvious even without detection, and the more subtle traps won't kill you unless you were already in over your head, in which case they're just providing the last nail in the coffin.

Whether or not this has actually been achieved yet, I don't know; Gabe's been working quickly and it's hard to keep up, playtesting-wise.

[CyclopsSlayer]

The mana cost could change, though I understand that that won't make it much more exciting. Is there some other way to give the spell an interesting boost now that trap detection is gone?

Well, is it possible to add scaling effects?
ie. @level 5 it just finds doors and stairs, @15 it adds say also lights current room/area, @25 also detects monsters, all the way to eventually doing something like a full detect, and map.

With traps, is there any passive detection now, or are we back to Angband 1.0, search, step, search, step, search, etc... Maybe my High Elf Mage is just diving too fast and so not in a 'proper' level range, but I cannot recall ever spotting a trap without actively searching first or walking onto it.
Died due to over confidence, most common reason, so it will be a while until I can get deep enough to compare again.

BTW, this change just made, if they still exist, Rods that can detect traps mandatory gear imo.

[fizzix]

The mana cost could change, though I understand that that won't make it much more exciting. Is there some other way to give the spell an interesting boost now that trap detection is gone?

Well, it could also detect interesting dungeon features (if we had them) things that indicate that certain groups of monsters are nearby.

[CunningGabe]

Ahh, cool! I just assumed since it had said it found traps, that it would. No biggie.

Sadly though that drops the value of the now "Find Doors and Stairs" spell in my priority, a LOT

The mana cost could change, though I understand that that won't make it much more exciting. Is there some other way to give the spell an interesting boost now that trap detection is gone?

[CyclopsSlayer]

Ahh, cool! I just assumed since it had said it found traps, that it would. No biggie.

Sadly though that drops the value of the now "Find Doors and Stairs" spell in my priority, a LOT

[CunningGabe]

edit: the Scrolls work, the Find spell does not.

The spells have changed to not find traps. The scrolls are now the only foolproof way of finding traps, but the really dangerous ones are always visible. I'll update the descriptions -- sorry for the surprise!

[CyclopsSlayer]

Were these trap changes partially implemented?

I am running a char in angband-win-v4-716-gf7c33f8 and while all the Detect Trap scrols, and the Find traps/doors/stairs spells are still in game, it seems they don't find the traps, or at least not always?

Entered the mini-vaault room, the cross-shaped two 3x10 rooms east and west, and two 2x3 rooms north and south, a single spaced room in the center with object and mob in it, there are always several traps in these rooms. Cast the Find and 2-3 steps later I stepped on a still invisible gas trap.

If the Mage spell no longer detects traps, maybe the name and description should be changed?

edit: the Scrolls work, the Find spell does not.

[mixer]

If you want traps to be interesting you need to reduce trap detection. I would remove the rod & staff and increase the cost of the spell to say 30 mana a time. Then people will have to search for the traps or take the risk. This will mean that when you add an interesting trap it is likely to be triggered.