Trap changes

[Magnate]

I'm beginning to see an overarching vibe in this thread that players want traps to remain largely meaningless. That rogues and thieves shouldn't have an advantage in a trapped environment versus other non-stealthy classes, which IMO make this whole exercise largely useless. Just my 2 cents.

Right now, no class has a fear of traps. I fear that after 'community approved' changes are made, this will still hold true. People fear change. I fear no eggs will be broken.

If this were the old situation of V development circa 2010-11, you'd be right. But the whole point of v4 is to allow eggs to get broken, in defiance of the lowest common denominator of community consensus. Here's to an interesting omelette!

[buzzkill]

I'm beginning to see an overarching vibe in this thread that players want traps to remain largely meaningless. That rogues and thieves shouldn't have an advantage in a trapped environment versus other non-stealthy classes, which IMO make this whole exercise largely useless. Just my 2 cents.

Right now, no class has a fear of traps. I fear that after 'community approved' changes are made, this will still hold true. People fear change. I fear no eggs will be broken.

[Magnate]

As a final thought, enemies that create traps would be more interesting if they scattered them in an area around the player rather than predictably in a ring.

This is exactly the kind of thing that will be possible when v4 tests out the new effects framework. You'll be able to specify a target square, a radius around it, a percent chance for an effect on each square in that radius.

(No, this isn't imminent - but once the remaining combat wrinkles are ironed out it's my next project, I think.)

[Lord Tom]

Ever so slightly off-topic, I'd love to see trapped chests just go away. The need to perfunctorily search/disarm every time I see one is 99 parts annoying to just 1 part gameplay-enriching.

But back to the OP, I think it's an intriguing direction. It does seem silly to always detect at every trap boundary, just because of the slight chance of hitting a deadly trap.

I guess a big part of the challenge (along with the too-dangerous vs not-dangerous enough paradox) is differentiating them from monsters, gameplay-wise. If they can't be detected, then you want scenarios where you're setting up to kill a monster or grab an item, but turn the corner into LOS and encounter a trap...forcing you to change your plans...somehow.

As a final thought, enemies that create traps would be more interesting if they scattered them in an area around the player rather than predictably in a ring.

[fizzix]

Traps don't need to be hidden. Perhaps the most dangerous traps (summoning) should always be visible. Also, always visible traps that can be detected but act at a distance are good. (essentially this is what potion, scroll, ring and chest mimics are, as well as nexus Qs)

Searching for traps is hard to make interesting. But the risk of disarming is worthwhile. You'd need to do something about the spells though. Perhaps only rogues and mages should be able to disarm traps with spells.

[Nemesis]

Traps that aren't detectable, especially summoning and teleportation traps but also things like confusion or blind, would discourage players from diving. I don't like that idea at all.

[buzzkill]

Here's yet another approach. (which Scatha just nosed me out on, sort of)

Every trap has a rating from 1 to 100 base (but could be modified higher). This rating indicates the quality of construction and therefore how well disguised or hidden the trap is, not necessarily how powerful or dangerous it is. 1 indicates that it is extraordinarily obvious (reflectors and neon paint), and 100 (or higher) indicates that it's almost entirely unable to be noticed (damn near invisible).

Every character has a detection skill that ranges for 1 to 100 base (but could be modified higher). If your detection skill exceeds the trap's rating, then you notice it every time. A master rogue will never overlook a shoddy trap.

If a characters detection skill is less then the trap's rating then he has a % chance of noticing the trap (player skill) / (trap rating) = (% chance to detect). This would be a one time only check, meaning that only one check for each trap within passive detection range, from each individual gird. One check per grid, per trap. I hope that makes sense in conjunction with the theme laid out in the OP.

The interesting part:

Realistically, traps placed randomly around the dungeon, presumably in haste by previous adventurers of questionable skill and also subject to the ravages of time, would be of lower quality and thus more easily noticed. I'd say that traps near doors or stairs, which while random, have some hint of intelligent placement, would be of a slightly higher quality. Specifically, placed traps, such as those in special rooms would be even better, and vaults would contain the highest quality of trap, placed there by experts to protect the valuables within.

I was also thinking that when a monster moves over a trap, while it shouldn't be able to activate or destroy the trap, could damage it's camouflage making it more noticeable, or make it more noticeable by the visible actions taken to avoid it (jumping over or squeezing around, etc).

The advantages:

1. Randomly placed traps in meaningless locations become easily detected and thus far less dangerous.
2. Stealthy classes will find most in-depth traps. Non-stealthy classes while not being clueless, would fail to find some. Isn't that the point of all this.
3. Traps in vaults will actually be harder to detect, thus more dangerous than other traps. Fewer vault traps will be necessary.
4. If we pair the trap rating to the type of trap (assuming more dangerous trap type such as summoning are rated higher), then we can have a situation where trap that are placed randomly about the dungeon are not only more easily noticed but are also of the less dangerous type.

The numbers (subject to tweaking):

Traps rating = DL*2 base, then further modify by specific placement and damage, and then throw in some random variation.
Character ability = CL*1. Double for stealthy classes. Halve for clumsy classes. Further modify by character race and 'items of searching'.

That's pretty much it. I'd also advocate a similar 'danger level' for traps with a similar 1-100+ rating system. Lots of teleport and summoning traps in dangerous locations such as vaults. Bigger explosions too. While just the opposite would hold true for a trap placed in the middle of an anonymous corridor (for no apparent reason).

I'd also advocate random placement of traps within vaults, or (maybe 1/2 a dozen) identical vault designs with alternate trap placements, cause some people just know way too much about this game.

[Scatha]

Actually, though, I think you SHOULD be able to find more traps by re-searching previously searched areas, but ONLY if your searching skill has increased in the meantime. (Why should you be penalized for searching early? It doesn't make sense that just because you've searched somewhere once, you can't come back later once your skill has increased and search again to find any traps you missed!)

The natural way to implement this mechanic is to have each trap get a random difficulty level assigned on creation (distribution can depend on depth and trap type), and you spot it if your searching (+distance modifier + searching bonus) is ever high enough.

(Sil doesn't actually use that mechanic, but we considered it for a couple of places in the game (Lore master and Cursebreaking, which are currently both automatic successes). The game has a take on traps which is similar to that which is being aimed for here - you are never completely safe, but they shouldn't kill you in isolation; we do allow spending more time searching to give better odds of success, but there's a turn limit on the game, so this isn't abusive.)

Presumably summoning traps would be interesting rather than instant death if set up so that the player always got the next turn before the summoned monsters?

[ekolis]

Would this involve creation of a new zone, similar to the DTrap zone, which indicates "I've searched here for traps"? Otherwise you might forget where you've searched already, and waste time searching again!

Actually, though, I think you SHOULD be able to find more traps by re-searching previously searched areas, but ONLY if your searching skill has increased in the meantime. (Why should you be penalized for searching early? It doesn't make sense that just because you've searched somewhere once, you can't come back later once your skill has increased and search again to find any traps you missed!)

[andrewdoull]

Please ensure that there's no advantage in spamming the 's' key - that is for each location, once you've searched from it by moving into it with searching mode enabled, searching again doesn't reveal more traps.

[d_m]

I think Gabe should proceed with his changes, since V4 is all about trying things out.

I agree with Derakon that traps which are likely to kill and/or hard to disarm should probably be obvious or detectable. Ideally, I think I'd like some traps to be obvious but hard to disarm/avoid, and others to be hidden but (in general) less dangerous.

That said, I don't mind the idea that "small" traps will be unnoticed 5-10% of the time (where small traps means things that aren't summoning, trap doors, or teleport).

[jevansau]

If traps are no longer 100% detectable and disarmable, I think the amount of traps will need to be greatly reduced, especially in vaults. A few strategically placed traps is good, a vast mass of them will just make vaults completely impossible.
I remember this being a major issue in early versions of FAY.

[EpicMan]

I like the trap setup in Dungeons of Dredmor:
-Traps are hidden initially, but are always revealed when they are within the player's Trap Sense range (normally one).

Traps can be disarmed, the difficulty based on the trap type and the player's trap disarming ability. Most traps are one-shot, though not all. Failing to disarm a trap always sets it off.

Non-flying monsters can set off traps.

The best traps are basically triggers, with a corresponding turret on a wall. When triggered, the turret fires and arrow / blast / whatever is fired. You can protect yourself by making sure there is something between you and the turret (say, a monster), or even use them against the monsters. These traps are not one-shot, of course.

[Antoine]

I continue to maintain that the most important trap change is to place them in somewhat predictable places so that there is some skill in anticipating where they might be found

[dionysian]

Always liked hallucination or amnesia for trap effects that provide plenty of disincentive to setting them off, without leading to too many YASD that make the game less fun.