Even more thoughts on v4

[Nomad]

Playing a standarts game for a change, I just found the Soft Cap of Thengel on the floor at 950'; the level feeling was "there may not be much interesting here". I guess it is within its native depth, but still, that doesn't seem quite right...

[fizzix]

Some more thoughts:

* Several uniques (ugluk, ulfast) have dropped nothing (i double-checked to make sure it wasn't a squelched item). I feel uniques should always drop something.

* The general store had 10 bolts for sale and 40 bolts for sale, this seems like a bug.

* Stat gain at dlevel 40 is very rough because of certain monsters who you cannot handle at that level. I agree that 30 might be too easy. 35 seems like a good compromise. There are a lot of monsters at dlevel 40 that are difficult to handle pre-stat gain. (nether wraiths, patriarchs, night mares, etc.) I could move some of these monsters deeper, but personally I prefer moving stat-gain a bit earlier.

* I've found two artifacts so far, Paurelec and Nimloth.

* Taking on Kavlax with less than 310 HP is impossible, therefore, he can't be handled pre-stat gain for a mage. Even though I suggested he drop MB5, I regret it now.

* Mages will go through a regime where the majority of damage is done through devices. I think this is good.

[Derakon]

* Several uniques (ugluk, ulfast) have dropped nothing (i double-checked to make sure it wasn't a squelched item). I feel uniques should always drop something.

Practically every unique I killed in my last game had a terrible drop of one or two items that were only notable in how utterly useless they were. Like, not even "I would consider using this item in X circumstance" useful.

* The general store had 10 bolts for sale and 40 bolts for sale, this seems like a bug.

Stack size is limited to 40; if the store wants to sell 50 bolts that's how it'd have to do it.

* Taking on Kavlax with less than 310 HP is impossible, therefore, he can't be handled pre-stat gain for a mage. Even though I suggested he drop MB5, I regret it now.

Yeah, Raal's needs to be reasonably accessible because it's so key to mage progression.

* Mages will go through a regime where the majority of damage is done through devices. I think this is good.

We just need to make certain that the mages know about this. I think including the device skill damage multiplier in wand descriptions will be a big help with this.

[flechette]

It's not impossible, just not safe, to fight Kavlax at 300hp. I took him out with my current priest right at 320hp, with +16 speed (hasted +6 base) and a bunch of OoD. I'll also say I've seen more than a few uniques not drop anything, which is a bit frustrating, especially when it's one of the Wraith uniques.

[Magnate]

I have no problems with moving statgain potions to 35 rather than 40, and giving Raal's to someone other than Kavlax. Also happy to add a check that uniques must always have a drop - I suspect what's happening is that they're generating an item that hurts them, which is then deleted. I agree that they ought to get a different item in those cases.

I don't see why a store selling two different stacks of bolts is wrong - IIRC I've often seen two stacks of identical ammo for sale.

@Nomad: Thengel has a power rating of 79, which gives it a contribution to the level feeling of about 400,000. At dl1 that would get the fourth-best feeling; at dl19 only the sixth, which is what you got. This seems low because it's an artifact, but it's commensurate with its power, which is equivalent to a weapon (2d5) (+16,+16) weapon with no other abilities. Now, you may or may not agree with the power rating, but leaving that aside, that power rating isn't particularly notable at that depth. So do we want artifacts to boost the level rating "just cos", and if so by an absolute amount or by an amount related to their power?

[flechette]

I've found that I'm pretty much ignoring the level feelings, and just detecting objects, clearing to them, and flowing up/down ASAP to hunt for more. I've found excellent equipment/consumables on levels with 'cobwebs' and the one right above that, so I just don't pay attention anymore. Seeing the high level feelings seems to be a rarity reserved for well-equipped vaults. I think a lot of players got used to the 'special' level feeling, and would search until they found the artifact, OOD unique, or pit/nest that boosted the level to the special feeling.

I will mention that I sold a stack of about 30 excellent shots to the weapon shop for 9k, even though his purse size was only 5k. Seems odd that I can get 9k because I'm selling him lots of little things, but he won't ever pay more than 5k for a single weapon, no matter how awesome it is. Not really a problem, just seemed odd.

[fizzix]

I have no problems with moving statgain potions to 35 rather than 40, and giving Raal's to someone other than Kavlax. Also happy to add a check that uniques must always have a drop - I suspect what's happening is that they're generating an item that hurts them, which is then deleted. I agree that they ought to get a different item in those cases.

Hold on, can you explain this mechanic? Does that mean that no evil monster can drop a slay evil weapon? That seems very problematic to me.

@Nomad: Thengel has a power rating of 79, which gives it a contribution to the level feeling of about 400,000. At dl1 that would get the fourth-best feeling; at dl19 only the sixth, which is what you got. This seems low because it's an artifact, but it's commensurate with its power, which is equivalent to a weapon (2d5) (+16,+16) weapon with no other abilities. Now, you may or may not agree with the power rating, but leaving that aside, that power rating isn't particularly notable at that depth. So do we want artifacts to boost the level rating "just cos", and if so by an absolute amount or by an amount related to their power?

Artifacts should boost the level feeling regardless of their power.

[fizzix]

It's not impossible, just not safe, to fight Kavlax at 300hp. I took him out with my current priest right at 320hp, with +16 speed (hasted +6 base) and a bunch of OoD. I'll also say I've seen more than a few uniques not drop anything, which is a bit frustrating, especially when it's one of the Wraith uniques.

I said you need 300+ HP. Mages take a long time to get that high, mine has 180 HP, which is a far cry from being able to take on kavlax. The other issue is that Mages have increased survivability from being able to cast resist elements, since Kavlax holds the spellbook with resistance (not Raal's) this becomes an issue. This was my fault, I'll look for another candidate.

[Derakon]

One thing I forgot to mention about my warrior: I cheated. I modified object.txt to make Rods of Trap Location immune to electrical damage and to recharge in 1/5th the normal time.

Having low-level rods be vulnerable to electrical damage was maybe justifiable when they were common, but as of the TMJ attack back in 3.1.x it now often takes until around about 1500' to find your first one, and oftentimes you'll be moving at speed before your second one shows up, thus necessitating waiting at the trap border for the dang thing to recharge. Letting them be destructible is nothing but a jerk move to warriors. At least all the other classes can reliably buy new spellbooks when they get destroyed.

It's particularly telling that all of the rods that non-warrior classes might want to use are immune to electrical damage.

Anyway, starting up a new character with the latest version. I think I'll go paladin this time.

[fizzix]

It's particularly telling that all of the rods that non-warrior classes might want to use are immune to electrical damage.

I've always thought that staves of detect evil should be staves of detect monster, and that there should be a staff of doors, stairs and trap location that is sold at the magic shop instead of the staff of mapping. Maybe I'll add that staff if I can think up a good name for it.

[Derakon]

I've always thought that staves of detect evil should be staves of detect monster, and that there should be a staff of doors, stairs and trap location that is sold at the magic shop instead of the staff of mapping. Maybe I'll add that staff if I can think up a good name for it.

I'm fine with only getting Detect Evil; warriors can generally deal with the other stuff anyway. But traps are such a lame mechanic currently that arbitrarily making it harder for one class to deal with them (without making that dealing process any more interesting) is just stupid.

I use the staff of mapping a lot. It gives valuable tactical information. Do you think it's too good to be in the store? Even though the alchemist sells scrolls? (The main utility of the staff over scrolls is that I can recharge the staff via the magic store without risk of explosions, ensuring a somewhat reliable supply).

I'm now at clvl 15 / dlvl 12 with my new hobbit warrior, and good items are a lot more available now. I have a Sharp Shortsword of Piety (1d7) (+4,+7) with four affixes (piety, sharp, elven, slaying) and Tough Gauntlets of Slaying (+1,+5) [3,+4) with five affixes (tough, slow descent, slow descent, slaying, free action). I note that both were dropped by Bullroarer; meanwhile, Brodda dropped an ordinary Flail.

I also have enough miscellaneous resistance gear to have the basic four all covered. This stands in very sharp contrast to my previous character. I think you overcorrected, Magnate.

As an aside, archery seems to be significantly better than melee for non-warrior characters in the early game. 3d4 at range (longbow + basic arrows) is much better than 2d4 in melee. I almost wonder if we shouldn't sell longbows and light crossbows in the store? You could have a "hand crossbow" at an x2 multiplier, maybe.

[Magnate]

@fizzix: that's correct, evil monsters cannot drop slay evil weapons. Monsters without IM_FOO cannot drop BRAND_FOO weapons either. There was a lot of debate about this, and I thought it wouldn't do any harm to reduce the occurrence of those things.

I'm fine with only getting Detect Evil; warriors can generally deal with the other stuff anyway. But traps are such a lame mechanic currently that arbitrarily making it harder for one class to deal with them (without making that dealing process any more interesting) is just stupid.

Traps are long overdue for some serious work, and there have been dozens of suggestions. I hope someone will code some of them up and submit a pull request for v4, as it would be good to try something different. (In the meantime, I have no problem with the rods getting rElec.)

I use the staff of mapping a lot. It gives valuable tactical information. Do you think it's too good to be in the store? Even though the alchemist sells scrolls? (The main utility of the staff over scrolls is that I can recharge the staff via the magic store without risk of explosions, ensuring a somewhat reliable supply).

I don't think either scrolls or staves of mapping should be sold in the stores.

I'm now at clvl 15 / dlvl 12 with my new hobbit warrior, and good items are a lot more available now. I have a Sharp Shortsword of Piety (1d7) (+4,+7) with four affixes (piety, sharp, elven, slaying) and Tough Gauntlets of Slaying (+1,+5) [3,+4) with five affixes (tough, slow descent, slow descent, slaying, free action). I note that both were dropped by Bullroarer; meanwhile, Brodda dropped an ordinary Flail.

I also have enough miscellaneous resistance gear to have the basic four all covered. This stands in very sharp contrast to my previous character. I think you overcorrected, Magnate.

Quite possibly - I made a lot of small changes which probably added up to slightly more than necessary. Unfortunately there is a bug which prevents the stats code doing any more than 5963 runs (precisely!), so until that's fixed I can't tell by exactly how much. But rest assured we will get the right balance eventually! At least you're not swimming in artifacts ... have you found any? Or missed any?

EDIT: myshkin has fixed the stats bug, so providing we don't find any more, I should have the results on Sunday. We'll see quite how much I've overcorrected!

As an aside, archery seems to be significantly better than melee for non-warrior characters in the early game. 3d4 at range (longbow + basic arrows) is much better than 2d4 in melee. I almost wonder if we shouldn't sell longbows and light crossbows in the store? You could have a "hand crossbow" at an x2 multiplier, maybe.

Longbows are not guaranteed in the store, and xbows are heavy. But yes, I've always supported the idea of a x2 hand xbow.

[Magnate]

Artifacts should boost the level feeling regardless of their power.

By how many feelings? This is easy enough to do, but are you saying you want "special" feelings in non-preserve mode? That's the only way to ensure that really weak artifacts produce a noticeable feeling at deeper levels. The alternative is simply to increase the feeling by two or three notches if there are any artifacts on the level, but a single weak artifact could still end up with a feeling of "aren't many treasures" or "not much interesting". If people really don't like that, I don't see any other solution but to make all artifacts give special feelings - which IMO is a bit pointless in preserve mode.

EDIT: I guess there is another alternative: we simply say that if there's an artifact on the level, the feeling cannot be less than "there may be something worthwhile here". How about that?

[fizzix]

@fizzix: that's correct, evil monsters cannot drop slay evil weapons. Monsters without IM_FOO cannot drop BRAND_FOO weapons either. There was a lot of debate about this, and I thought it wouldn't do any harm to reduce the occurrence of those things.

Drat, I must have missed this discussion. Anyway, I think this is a horrible idea. I would've preferred there be no restriction on whether monsters can pick up slay or branded weapons either. After all, there was no problem with the player picking up Nazgul and Morgul weapons when those existed.

How many endgame uniques can drop slay evil weapons? You have Huan, Tarrasque, the Angels, Fundin. I don't know who else, but it's a pretty short list of monsters that are some of the hardest to kill in the game.

On a less argumentative note, I'd be fine with setting a minimum feeling for a level with an artifact. Something worthwhile could be good enough, or something good. The other option would be to actually make the power levels be more dependent on where they appear. A +15, +15 lance is pretty useless on dlevel 10 when you can't wield it properly and it slows you, but Thengel is a pretty awesome find.

One way to account for that is to penalize heavy things at low levels, so that plate mail is not that strong, but robes of resistance are worth a lot. There might be better solutions, I'll think a bit.

[bio_hazard]

By how many feelings? This is easy enough to do, but are you saying you want "special" feelings in non-preserve mode? That's the only way to ensure that really weak artifacts produce a noticeable feeling at deeper levels. The alternative is simply to increase the feeling by two or three notches if there are any artifacts on the level, but a single weak artifact could still end up with a feeling of "aren't many treasures" or "not much interesting". If people really don't like that, I don't see any other solution but to make all artifacts give special feelings - which IMO is a bit pointless in preserve mode.

EDIT: I guess there is another alternative: we simply say that if there's an artifact on the level, the feeling cannot be less than "there may be something worthwhile here". How about that?

Can we just set a minimum "There may be something worthwhile" or whatever that message is?