v4 now available

[myshkin]

I haven't gotten to play v4 yet due to the OSX UTF-8 bug

I have the Carbon port partly working. It still crashes a lot, though (I haven't enumerated all of the cases, but certainly when bringing up the visuals editor and when switching back from graphics to ASCII mode). My intent is not to spend too much more time on it, and instead to see whether I can get the Cocoa port fully working. However, would it be useful for me to push what I have to the v4 master?

[Derakon]

Er, which version is generated by "make -f Makefile.osx"? I get the feeling that whatever happens, I'll need to be able to rebuild on a regular basis as v4 is in general very unstable right now.

I greatly appreciate you working on this, Myshkin.

[myshkin]

Er, which version is generated by "make -f Makefile.osx"? I get the feeling that whatever happens, I'll need to be able to rebuild on a regular basis as v4 is in general very unstable right now.

Makefile.osx builds main-crb.c, the port that uses Carbon APIs. ridiculous fish recently contributed main-cocoa.m, a port that uses Cocoa APIs. We aim to move the OS X port to Cocoa in the near future.

I greatly appreciate you working on this, Myshkin.

You're welcome! I regret that the OS X port has been nonfunctional for so long.

[Nomad]

Small ID bug related to weapon damage:

I was wielding a dagger doing 19.6 damage/round. I picked up another dagger that turned out to have the Rusty affix; however, before I tested it in combat and discovered it was Rusty, I could already see in the Inspect screen that it would only do 16 damage/round. Looks like the dpr calculation was already using the correct 1d2 sides even though the unidentified dagger was still showing as "a Dagger (1d4)".

[Magnate]

Small ID bug related to weapon damage:

I was wielding a dagger doing 19.6 damage/round. I picked up another dagger that turned out to have the Rusty affix; however, before I tested it in combat and discovered it was Rusty, I could already see in the Inspect screen that it would only do 16 damage/round. Looks like the dpr calculation was already using the correct 1d2 sides even though the unidentified dagger was still showing as "a Dagger (1d4)".

Well found! Thank you - on the list as #1571

[BlueFish]

Saved my game from the previous V4 build, copied the save to this version, started, and 5 minutes later at 250' my level 9 kobold rogue found Nimthanc, dropped from a green ooze. Thanks Magnate!!

Hmmm - hope it hasn't gone too far the other way! Stats were at 17k runs at breakfast this morning - it's about 50% slower than 3.3.0, so it's not going to finish 50k until about midnight. So I get to spend today boning up on SQL ...

2 or 3 games later, just found Narthanc at 50'.

[Magnate]

2 or 3 games later, just found Narthanc at 50'.

The stats say that artifact drops are more generous than V on dl1 and dl2, but artifact generosity *rapidly* declines in v4 (it's comparable at levels 3-6 and meaner from dl7 onwards). I don't really want to make the lategame gap bigger for the sake of dls 1 and 2 if I can help it. In the next v4 update I will tweak the 'thancs back to their previous power, i.e. (+6,+6) without AC, because that's much more in keeping with the v4 power curve. If they're still too much I'll need to re-think.

(80% of artifacts found at dl1 or 2 are 'thancs, btw - that's why I think adjusting them is relevant.)

[Derakon]

The 'thancs were originally 1d4 (+4, +6). I think they were fine like that; they were effectively lightweight 3d4 weapons with decent damage bonuses and were quite useful as such so long as you found them before 1000' or so. Sounds like with v4 making magical bonuses harder to find in general you could nerf them back to their original stature and they'd still be useful for even longer.

[Magnate]

The 'thancs were originally 1d4 (+4, +6). I think they were fine like that; they were effectively lightweight 3d4 weapons with decent damage bonuses and were quite useful as such so long as you found them before 1000' or so. Sounds like with v4 making magical bonuses harder to find in general you could nerf them back to their original stature and they'd still be useful for even longer.

That's exactly what I mean to do. (Of course ...)

EDIT: are you sure about the 1d4? They were changed from (+4,+6) to (+9,+12)[+10] on 11/11/09, but they've been 2d4 since 3.0.7s3 was first committed to SVN in 2007 ...

[Nomad]

Another small ID bug: when you recognise an affix on a splendid item, you get the {splendid} auto-inscription on pickup. However, you still get the redundant pseudo-ID message later about having a feeling that it's splendid.

Also, the minimun depths for the new shields need to be tweaked; at the moment small shields appear before bucklers and kite shields before large shields, which doesn't match the AC ratings. I think bucklers should probably be sold in the armoury, too.

Some other random observations after playing for a while:

- The ego situation is definitely improved since the boost to drops. Low-level egos like slow descent, slay orc and piety seem to show up pretty commonly in the first few levels, and early uniques drop things with affixes like slay evil, weak brands and free action. And drops do actually get noticably better by the time you reach 1000' or 1500'.

- Combat damage feels better balanced too now. Previously my warriors were still averaging around 20 dpr by 1000', now it's closer to 30 dpr. It's still non-trivial to melee group monsters and uniques, and I'm using a lot more Cure Wounds potions and escapes to survive, but it's not quite as miserably brutal as it was.

- Money's definitely much tighter now in selling games, even with better ego drops. The only time I've ever had enough cash together to buy a stat potion was when I found a copy of Tenser's on DL28.

- It still feels like I'm finding an unusual number of OoD consumables in the early dungeon. I've had several scrolls of acquirement and early stat potions in a relatively small number of games.

- Rings of damage and even reckless attacks are now massive game changers given the low +dam enchantments on the weapons. I think the bonuses on both need to be made more level dependent and possibly even reduced. (Maybe implementing ego jewellery is the answer here?)

Overall, it's much more playable now, while still being tougher than V. Looking good!

[Magnate]

Another small ID bug: when you recognise an affix on a splendid item, you get the {splendid} auto-inscription on pickup. However, you still get the redundant pseudo-ID message later about having a feeling that it's splendid.

Also, the minimun depths for the new shields need to be tweaked; at the moment small shields appear before bucklers and kite shields before large shields, which doesn't match the AC ratings. I think bucklers should probably be sold in the armoury, too.

Some other random observations after playing for a while:

- The ego situation is definitely improved since the boost to drops. Low-level egos like slow descent, slay orc and piety seem to show up pretty commonly in the first few levels, and early uniques drop things with affixes like slay evil, weak brands and free action. And drops do actually get noticably better by the time you reach 1000' or 1500'.

- Combat damage feels better balanced too now. Previously my warriors were still averaging around 20 dpr by 1000', now it's closer to 30 dpr. It's still non-trivial to melee group monsters and uniques, and I'm using a lot more Cure Wounds potions and escapes to survive, but it's not quite as miserably brutal as it was.

- Money's definitely much tighter now in selling games, even with better ego drops. The only time I've ever had enough cash together to buy a stat potion was when I found a copy of Tenser's on DL28.

- It still feels like I'm finding an unusual number of OoD consumables in the early dungeon. I've had several scrolls of acquirement and early stat potions in a relatively small number of games.

- Rings of damage and even reckless attacks are now massive game changers given the low +dam enchantments on the weapons. I think the bonuses on both need to be made more level dependent and possibly even reduced. (Maybe implementing ego jewellery is the answer here?)

Overall, it's much more playable now, while still being tougher than V. Looking good!

Thanks for the feedback - this thread is getting totally unmanageable, so I'm going to start a new one about the next update. I'm glad the adjustments seem to be working out.

Thanks for the bug report too - that's pseudo not yet being totally adjusted to rune-based ID. EDIT: Did your item happen to have two splendid affixes on it? That's the only way I can see this happening ...

I haven't queried the consumables stats yet, but you might be right. I'll do that when I've done the to_hit/dam stats.

And yes, ego jewelry is on the agenda, one day .... ;-)

[Zyphyr]

- It still feels like I'm finding an unusual number of OoD consumables in the early dungeon. I've had several scrolls of acquirement and early stat potions in a relatively small number of games.

I have been seeing the same thing. In fact, my most recent game on DL 12 : 1 Acquirement, 1 Potion of Experience, and 3 Stat potions (full type, not +1/-1).

[buzzkill]

I have been seeing the same thing. In fact, my most recent game on DL 12 : 1 Acquirement, 1 Potion of Experience, and 3 Stat potions (full type, not +1/-1).

But surely this character met an untimely demise. It's just a back door way of making the game harder.