[Un] Unangband 0.6.2-gold released

[thorgot]

I think this is unrelated. You can only get to Hornburg once, from Isengard war-ready. There is even some related warning and a confirmation... As soon as you, and Saruman's forces arrive in Horburg to fight the battle, Isengard is emptied and stays that way regardless of the battle's outcome.

Thanks. I must have missed the warning.

[Bandobras]

After killing the death knight at dunland, the staircase brought me to regular Isengard (as opposed to war-ready or emptied)

Thanks for the report. Fixed.

and now I can't get to the siege of hornburg from emptied Isengard or Dunland.

I think this is unrelated. You can only get to Hornburg once, from Isengard war-ready. There is even some related warning and a confirmation... As soon as you, and Saruman's forces arrive in Horburg to fight the battle, Isengard is emptied (as the messages inform you) and stays that way regardless of the battle's outcome. No use trying to be shrewd with maps.

[thorgot]

After killing the death knight at dunland, the staircase brought me to regular Isengard (as opposed to war-ready or emptied), and now I can't get to the siege of hornburg from emptied Isengard or Dunland.

[andrewdoull]

I wasn't clear, perhaps. I meant that if you can see a monster that is "hiding" then maybe the monster thinks it's hiding, but you can still see it, for example telepathy. In this case, I think all your attacks should succeed as if the monster were totally visible (or not, skill lacking ).

For example, if I have an amulet of telepathy, and a ghost is hiding in a wall next to me, I can see it but can't attack it by pressing the direction key. I should be able to do that.

Also if a monster hides in the floor in front of me, but I can still see it with telepathy, then same thing. As it is, you just displace it.

I think maybe you were talking about hidden monsters that you know are there, but can't actually see.

Monsters hiding in the floor or wall are beyond the edge of wall or floor and protected by it.

The same with a monster swimming in water. If it is hiding, it has dived deep in the water and the water protects it from your attacks.

You can't hit hidden monsters, but equally, they can't hit you.

As an aside - why do mine dogs not explode at me? Are they supposed to do that?

That's a bug.

[baddog73]

I wasn't clear, perhaps. I meant that if you can see a monster that is "hiding" then maybe the monster thinks it's hiding, but you can still see it, for example telepathy. In this case, I think all your attacks should succeed as if the monster were totally visible (or not, skill lacking ).

For example, if I have an amulet of telepathy, and a ghost is hiding in a wall next to me, I can see it but can't attack it by pressing the direction key. I should be able to do that.

Also if a monster hides in the floor in front of me, but I can still see it with telepathy, then same thing. As it is, you just displace it.

I think maybe you were talking about hidden monsters that you know are there, but can't actually see.

As an aside - why do mine dogs not explode at me? Are they supposed to do that?

[Bandobras]

Also, it would be nice if you could hit monsters that are hiding, but that you can detect, via telepathy or something.

At least, it would be nice to make it consistent with monsters that are invisible --- perhaps let them be "hiding" in any terrain, even air. But, anyway, if only visible monsters can be hit, suddenly playing low-level human warriors becomes very difficult, compared to V. Invisibilty is already a big problem for the player, no need to make it worse by not allowing to hit by beating blindly around.

Perhaps make it so that monsters that hide, whether visible or not, are as hard to hit as evasive monsters? So, they can be hit normally with breaking potions or ball spells, but hardly with melee and any other distance attacks, unless stunned. Then trying to hit the monster would wake it up, as normally, even if no blow connects. I'm not sure if this is a good idea, but it's KISS: hiding = invisible + evasive, as long as the monsters is on the proper terrain, regardless of sleeping or player detection or telepathy. The rules for running over are also standard, which means evasiveness nor sleep nor visibility have no effect, only running vs. walking (or + direction, that is swinging blindly at the air) makes a difference. Of course if the monster is invisible the player is more likely to run over him instead of walking into him, unless he takes care.

Edit: after all I think no monsters should be allowed to hide in the air. That's too much KISS. So, ghosts will be able to hide in all non-empty terrain, e.g. walls, but clear centipedes should not be evasive ever...

[baddog73]

Also, it would be nice if you could hit monsters that are hiding, but that you can detect, via telepathy or something.

[andrewdoull]

It's the same trick as when you want to hit an invisible monster with melee in V, but not to advance in that direction in case you misjudged the location of the monster (in that case it says about swinging around in at the empty air or some such). I even think that invisible monsters are hidden in air and in walls in exactly the same way that the ranger in the pit or Stone Trolls in stony floor. If I'm right, you run over any sleeping invisible monsters and perhaps even over non-sleeping ones if you don't see them or if they lurk instead of emerging from hiding (if there is such a distinction in any other case than when sleeping).

The intention is that hidden are not just invisible, but you cannot actually get to them - there's something in the way (e.g. water).

So being able to hit these with + is a bug.

But then, walking over a sleeping hidden monster in this way should hackily wake it to prevent the kind of situation seen above.

Monsters hiding in shallow pits is not quite right yet. I'll tune this as a to do item. Basically, the intention is shallow pits should act like a trench in real life. e.g. hides monsters effectively, unless you are directly adjacent.

Andrew

[Bandobras]

that "+ direction" trick

It's the same trick as when you want to hit an invisible monster with melee in V, but not to advance in that direction in case you misjudged the location of the monster (in that case it says about swinging around in at the empty air or some such). I even think that invisible monsters are hidden in air and in walls in exactly the same way that the ranger in the pit or Stone Trolls in stony floor. If I'm right, you run over any sleeping invisible monsters and perhaps even over non-sleeping ones if you don't see them or if they lurk instead of emerging from hiding (if there is such a distinction in any other case than when sleeping).

[Big Al]

On more thing I've discovered recently is I can run over monsters on any terrain (at least sleeping ones?) if I 'run direction' over them, instead of 'move direction'. Quite handy in some tactical situations, if I only remembered to use it...

I use this a lot, though mostly by accident. It can be kind of painful if I'm fighting a bunch of monsters in a doorway, and accidentally push through one of them, and find myself surrounded.

He is hidden in the pit, so the light can't reach him. Depending on the monster they may hide in various terrain, some trolls in rock, some monsters in water, many (all?) monsters in pits. When they are hidden, the only way I figured I can reach them is with '+ direction'.

I'll have to try that "+ direction" trick - in a previous game, I was trying to fight the Master of Earth, but he was hidden in some mud, so I couldn't attack him. And because he's so sluggish, he just wouldn't ever wake up, no matter what I did. I had to just leave him there sleeping in the end.

[Bandobras]

High-Elf Warrior Mage (Style: unarmed ... don't ask )

;D

.. moves through a tunnel of "shallow pits". At the end of the tunnel, she casts "Detect Monsters" .. and detects a sleeping ranger 2 squares behind her !

Obviously, she just moved through the square were the ranger is sleeping and didn't notice him .. and I moved her back and forth right over the ranger several time and nothing happened. Zapped a _Light over his head, still nothing !!

He is hidden in the pit, so the light can't reach him. Depending on the monster they may hide in various terrain, some trolls in rock, some monsters in water, many (all?) monsters in pits. When they are hidden, the only way I figured I can reach them is with '+ direction'.

On more thing I've discovered recently is I can run over monsters on any terrain (at least sleeping ones?) if I 'run direction' over them, instead of 'move direction'. Quite handy in some tactical situations, if I only remembered to use it...

And the same seems to be true for items that are dropped into shallow pits: hidden and therefore gone foreever, as items tend not to wake up no matter how long you jump up and down next to them ...

I have no clue. They can be found nearby in case of water and tall grass. Perhaps they teleport to somewhere on the level from the pits? I don't know the particular code.

[Arralen]

Sleeping monsters and shallow pits ..

I have reverted back to "unangband-062-beta2", but I haven't seen anything that the following behaviour has been changed:


High-Elf Warrior Mage (Style: unarmed ... don't ask ) .. moves through a tunnel of "shallow pits". At the end of the tunnel, she casts "Detect Monsters" .. and detects a sleeping ranger 2 squares behind her !

Obviously, she just moved through the square were the ranger is sleeping and didn't notice him .. and I moved her back and forth right over the ranger several time and nothing happened. Zapped a _Light over his head, still nothing !! After running around and smashing some novice shaman for some time, the range awoke and blinked away ... .
Looks like any sleeping monster is completely hidden in shallow pits for unlimited time.

And the same seems to be true for items that are dropped into shallow pits: hidden and therefore gone foreever, as items tend not to wake up no matter how long you jump up and down next to them ...

[lenochware]

Not going to happen. Altars are intended for priests to learn spells from. That is, there is nothing stopping another 'wand-like' feature e.g. thrones.
Andrew

I see. Yes, or magic circles or so..

btw. New terrain features are really great! I cooked meat on burning floor. )

[andrewdoull]

More like it. With charges? Or like rods with charging?

Well, personally, I would like altairs working like wands with charges.

Not going to happen. Altars are intended for priests to learn spells from.

That is, there is nothing stopping another 'wand-like' feature e.g. thrones.

Andrew

[lenochware]

More like it. With charges? Or like rods with charging?

Well, personally, I would like altairs working like wands with charges.

Btw. I don't see many differences between staff and wand in angband (although in unagband I saw few staves useful as weapons). I have idea of staff as main tool for wizards (as sword and bow for wariors) - with possibility activate it, do magical effects if mage hit something with staff, memorize selected spells into staff (with runes?), easy enchanting of the staff, more charges than wand....


With multiple, easily accessed dungeons, most very short (or will get shorter soon) and with depth limited to 60 I don't think it's so much fun as in O or other variants.

Yes, that's right.


Good idea with the fishing. But you also occasionaly get corpses of killed water monsters (fishes?), so it's a bit a duplicate feature.

Ah, you can get things from water already? Great! (I was thinking about edible fishes - ie. food, but spreading water-related things into water (as corpses of water monsters) is better.)