[Un] Unangband 0.6.2-gold released

[Bandobras]

You're pretty much right. Runes are already useful enough.

Heh, great, removing code is the kind of coding I like the most. Removed this in trunk. Lots of hacks gone. Too big commit to risk in gold, though.

We still need to complete (and perhaps change in some places) the rune definitions for some items and egos. This is an easy, but tedious, text file editing task...

[thorgot]

I cast several of my spells from runestones. Much nicer to carry a bag of runes than to carry a book of earth magic just to be able to cast stone to mud, book of water magic just to be able to cast mana pool, etc.

[Bandobras]

Oops. I've forgotten about the bags. Well, we can always revert the patch and it's only in the devel version.

How much UI hassle is the runes casting for you? How do you figure which spell you can cast and which you cannot? What if you had to cast your fire bolt spells from runes? Do you ever cast spells other than the two you mentioned from runes?

[andrewdoull]

Oops. I've forgotten about the bags. Well, we can always revert the patch and it's only in the devel version.

How much UI hassle is the runes casting for you? How do you figure which spell you can cast and which you cannot? What if you had to cast your fire bolt spells from runes? Do you ever cast spells other than the two you mentioned from runes?

I suspect those spells are useful enough and game play changing enough that having the book is probably a better requirement anyway. I'll get to that in the blog article series I'm writing on the magic system.

Andrew

[thorgot]

Oops. I've forgotten about the bags. Well, we can always revert the patch and it's only in the devel version.

How much UI hassle is the runes casting for you? How do you figure which spell you can cast and which you cannot? What if you had to cast your fire bolt spells from runes? Do you ever cast spells other than the two you mentioned from runes?

The UI was pretty annoying. I figured out which spells I could cast by browsing the runes. The runes were also incredibly useful when a waterball wiped out one of my basic books.

I still think it's a good idea to get rid of it.

[lenochware]

I have stored frost runestone in my home with one spell and it seems that this spell is changing randomly - everytime when I look at it there is different forst spell...
Yes, I like idea casting spells from altairs - it can be used for interesting tactic - but it would be maybe more fun, if I could cast even spells which I don't learnt - from altair? Because I don't know most of spells on altairs so I cannot use it. I know that I can learn spell from altair but I would like use it only temporary for local battle...

BTW, you know the fountain description says what it does when quaffed? I see... I didn't notice it.

Specify 'harder' Well I thought that maybe it would be interesting if I could choose different type of level by choosing different stairs. So level with bad feeling would have some hint on stairs. Or maybe hint about theme of dungeon? For example ladder covered by slime going to level with jelly and worms, stairs with bushes and grass going to "forest" level with trolls etc.... I am just thinking.

Another thing: It seems to me, that monsters can breath/cast on me even through wall. Here http://lenochware.ic.cz/preszed.gif Azog cast confusion on me happily...
Also it seems to me that most of breathing monster can see me from very long distance. See this: http://lenochware.ic.cz/longbreath.gif Here is green ogre on opposite corner of room, shooting some poison on me. I cannot see him so I haven't many possibilities to defense. It doesn't seems fair that monsters can see much longer distance than me. Or it differs on different types of monsters? Or he can see me because I am using light? I don't know...

[Bandobras]

but it would be maybe more fun, if I could cast even spells which I don't learnt - from altair?

Sounds nice, but this is not KISS, this would complicate the game rules logic. A fourth state would be needed for spells: too-hard, not-learned, learned, castable-even-though-unlearned. Perhaps even castable-even-though-too-hard? I'm not sure if it's worth it as long as altars are just ordinary books, only unmovable (which is totally KISS). (Possible confusion cases: what if you browse a book corresponding to an altar when standing on an altar? Some spells would be in two states at once? And what if your learned spell-limit is reached? )

I know that I can learn spell from altair but I would like use it only temporary for local battle...

A nicely balanced implementation of spell/prayer forgetting just waits for somebody to implement it, so you would be able to learn temporarily and then forget.

Well I thought that maybe it would be interesting if I could choose different type of level by choosing different stairs. So level with bad feeling would have some hint on stairs.

Unfortunately it's hard to generate a level with a precisely given feeling. And just adding 5 to the level of monster and object generation seems too blank. Just choose a different dungeon or dive if you are not deep enough...

Or maybe hint about theme of dungeon? For example ladder covered by slime going to level with jelly and worms, stairs with bushes and grass going to "forest" level with trolls etc.... I am just thinking.

That's a great idea! We have a few types of stairs so it'd be great if they influenced the type of monster and terrain ecology of the level the lead to. The only problem is, the type of the stairs is already influenced by the current ecology! So may end with a dungeon with Trolls and graveyard rooms from top to bottom if the first level is generated such! Hmmm, perhaps the stair terrain features should be totally random and exempt from the ecology considerations on the current level, only affecting the next one?

Another thing: It seems to me, that monsters can breath/cast on me even through wall.

There are some cracked walls, etc. you can shoot/breath through, but not walk, or see through, etc. But the screenshot does not seem to show any such walls (unless the stars are windows). So it may be the known bugs tha monsters try to cast spells through walls and even from a great distance. With most spells (bolts, balls), the walls block them, but possibly confusion is not blocked...

Also it seems to me that most of breathing monster can see me from very long distance.

They are monsters, after all, not puny humanoids... Wear an item with ESP
and you'll be as one of them.

However, the screen shot looks strange. You should be able to easily see the ogre. Is the room dark? If so, light it up, because monsters have perfect infravision, so you'll always be at a disadvantage, even with the light doused...

[thorgot]

Detect Power is impossible to learn (from the Magic Book of Conjuring) unless I get a Book of Lore, which also has the spell. Either remove it from the book of conjuring or give it another, more reasonable, prerequisite.

Technically, a book of Craft has one of the prerequisites (Sense Magic), but it still seems unfair to rely on a rare drop for something as important as Detect Power..

Acid Bolt would require me to have a book of Acid Magic to learn (that's the only place I can learn Acid Spit and Minor Acid Ball). Pointless, because that book has Acid Bolt.

[thorgot]

Something else weird is going on. Nar just died after being hit by a single Lightning Beam II. The Stone Trolls and Bill Ferny were also surprisingly easy.

[Big Al]

AFAIK, the acid bolt problem has been fixed in the svn source, and the detect power problem has been reported. Thanks for the info though.

Certain monsters in Un are susceptible to light (a lot of the orcs and trolls in particular) - the stone trolls are very easy, but only if you know the trick to hit them with light. I imagine that Nar is too.

[andrewdoull]

That's a great idea! We have a few types of stairs so it'd be great if they influenced the type of monster and terrain ecology of the level the lead to. The only problem is, the type of the stairs is already influenced by the current ecology! So may end with a dungeon with Trolls and graveyard rooms from top to bottom if the first level is generated such! Hmmm, perhaps the stair terrain features should be totally random and exempt from the ecology considerations on the current level, only affecting the next one?

Already planned for - just not yet implemented in dev. Although I hadn't considered slime / dust / blood covered stairs: I may be able to work this in somehow.

[andrewdoull]

Something else weird is going on. Nar just died after being hit by a single Lightning Beam II. The Stone Trolls and Bill Ferny were also surprisingly easy.

There's a hit point bug in gold that is fixed in development.

Andrew

[lenochware]

Sounds nice, but this is not KISS, this would complicate the game rules logic.

Hmm, maybe it could work more like staff or wand or so?

Unfortunately it's hard to generate a level with a precisely given feeling. And just adding 5 to the level of monster and object generation seems too blank. Just choose a different dungeon or dive if you are not deep enough...


But generating "longer" stairs going deeper or higher than next level would be also interesting - but maybe it would be too confusing..

There are some cracked walls, etc. you can shoot/breath through, but not walk, or see through, etc.

Its not only one case. I digged zig-zag corridor in wall and still get a few breaths ocassionally. But maybe they breath on floor before me or so..

They are monsters, after all, not puny humanoids... Wear an item with ESP
and you'll be as one of them.

But I am powerful hero with cap of seeing and wizzard light. I am dangerous! And it irritates me, if some silly hound breaths on me and I can just teleport away, or go to him (receiving many breaths) until I can see him and destroy him. But ok, now I have sword giving me telepathy and nobody can hide before me.

btw. I drunk from fountain and it decrease my intelligence. Damn! - And you are true - it is marked now on fountain.

I am just curious: Are there also monsters living in water, like in zangband? I didn't see them yet. It would be also fun have possibility of fishing by pressing "g" in water Maybe it should work same way for getting apple from apple tree. Now I must destroy apple tree for getting apple...

[Bandobras]

There's a hit point bug in gold that is fixed in development.

Is it so grave, really? Is it the one you fixed while rebalancing for 60 DL? If so, it can't be backported easily...

[Bandobras]

Sounds nice, but this is not KISS, this would complicate the game rules logic.

Hmm, maybe it could work more like staff or wand or so?

More like it. With charges? Or like rods with charging? I'm thinking about adding activations to runes (or making them explode when thrown?) so I'm interested in related simple ideas.

But generating "longer" stairs going deeper or higher than next level would be also interesting - but maybe it would be too confusing..

With multiple, easily accessed dungeons, most very short (or will get shorter soon) and with depth limited to 60 I don't think it's so much fun as in O or other variants.

Its not only one case. I digged zig-zag corridor in wall and still get a few breaths ocassionally. But maybe they breath on floor before me or so..

That they do all the time.

I am just curious: Are there also monsters living in water, like in zangband? I didn't see them yet..

I'm not sure. If you don't see any for a long time, please report it as a bug or at least a feature request.

It would be also fun have possibility of fishing by pressing "g" in water Maybe it should work same way for getting apple from apple tree. Now I must destroy apple tree for getting apple...

Good idea with the fishing. But you also occasionaly get corpses of killed water monsters (fishes?), so it's a bit a duplicate feature. For the trees, don't you get any apples by trying to walk into them? If not, try standing in them and pressing 'I' (to spot an apple), then 'g' (to get it).