[Un] Unangband 0.6.2-gold released

[Bandobras]

Any chance to get a "real" debug version which works with M$ Windwbugger

I have no clue how to make one, even if that's possible on Linux.

[Big Al]

I was thinking of reordering the dungeons in dungeons.txt so that they're in at least some kind of logical order, instead of the random mess of numbers they are now. (It'll make the dungeon knowledge screen a lot easier to find things, I figure, and provide a bit more structure to tell the player where to go once they've finished the Hobbit campaign.) It's grouped by location and in approximately the order I figure most people visit the locations and approximately order by depth. Also, order it so that any location that gets replaced by another location (eg. Hobbiton -> Hobbiton in ruins -> Hobbiton rebuilt) stay in the same order when replaced. I came up with the following list so far. Any suggestions? (Ignore the numbers before the colons - that's the order it's in right now.)

0:Nowhere Town (0)

# All the stories start in the Shire
1:Hobbiton (0)
	35:Hobbiton, in ruins (59)
	36:Hobbiton, rebuilt (0)

# The Hobbit novel has the easy route
57:East Road (0)

# The LotR has a slightly harder route
10:Maggot's farm (2-6)
58:Brandywine Ferry (0)
53:Buckland (0)
54:Old Forest (6-10)
55:Bombadil's house (11-12)
38:Barrow-downs (4-23)

# But they all get to Bree & Rivendell eventually
11:Bree (0-4)
39:Trollshaws Forest (4-6)
56:Midgewater Marshes (10-17)
12:Weathertop (17-30)
13:Ford to Rivendell (8)
2:Rivendell (0)

# Conclusion of the Hobbit...
3:Misty Mountains (5-13)
4:house of Beorn (15)
63:Woodmen Village (10-13)
5:Mirkwood the Great (13-26)
6:Lake-town (0)
	8:ruins of Lake-town (17)
	9:the Dale (0)
7:Lonely Mountain (26-36)
	47:Five Armies (30)
	42:vaults of Erebor (21)

# Back to the LotR - through Moria
59:the door to Moria (20)
14:west Moria entrance (6-24)
	16:west gates of Moria (33-36)
60:the mines of Moria (22-30)
15:east Moria entrance (13-24)
	17:east gates of Moria (36)
	61:Khazad-Dum (30-40)

# Or alternate to Moria through the mountains
52:Redhorn pass (7-33)
	41:Caradhras (20-40)

# Or alternate way around south
64:Dunland (9)
	65:Dunland in war rage (22-37)
48:Dol Guldur (36-48)
40:Isengard (3-33)
	23:Isengard, war-ready (21-40)
	66:emptied Isengard (30-45)
21:Edoras (8-27)
	22:Hornburg (22-40)

# Misc Forests
18:Lothlorien (0)
19:Parth Galen (20-40)
20:Fangorn Forest (20)
	37:Fangorn, aflame (27)
	62:the Ent Moot (21)

# Gondor/Rohan
29:Paths of the Dead (48-53)
28:Minas Tirith (0-48)
30:Pelennor Fields (43)
31:Mount Mindolluin (3)

25:Ithilien (20-21)
26:Minas Morgul (42-57)
27:Cirith Ungol (42-48)

# Mordor
24:Dead Marshes (41)
49:Morannon (40-53)
50:Udun (54-58)
51:Isenmouthe (55)
32:Plains of Gorgoroth (48-54)
33:Orodruin (54-59)
34:Barad-dur (48-59)

# Misc planar dungeons
44:Numenor (35-48)
45:Elemental Evil (21-40)
46:Crystal Castle (30-45)

# 67 unused
# 68 unused

# Angband
43:ruins of Angmar (30-51)
69:Angband (0-60)
70:the West (0)

The only thing that I'm not really sure about is Dol Guldur - I don't recall much about it in the books and Wikipedia doesn't say much about it other than it was "south of Mirkwood".

The dungeons of Angmar & Angband seem a little tacked-on; they don't really fit into the theme of the rest of the game. Are there any ideas on fleshing out Angband a bit more? Maybe taking some of the events from the Silmarillion (though I read that so long ago, I don't really remember if it would be suitable)? I guess part of the problem is the inconsistencies in timelines...Morgoth was long gone by the time the events in the LotR roll around. It would be sweet to make a third campaign (in addition to the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings) about the events in the First Age though (eg. the destruction of the lamps/trees of Valar, etc, culminating with the final battle with Morgoth in the War of Wrath in Angband).

[Bandobras]

Good work. Some of this is arbitrary, of course, so I will share my thoughts, too.

# The LotR has a slightly harder route
10:Maggot's farm (2-6)
58:Brandywine Ferry (0)
53:Buckland (0)
54:Old Forest (6-10)
55:Bombadil's house (11-12)
38:Barrow-downs (4-23)

Here, I feel Barrow-downs belongs to the next group. My current feeling is the LotR prelude is just a short detour, sight-seeing, flavour, and a very hard area early on (so that hardcore players starting a new character can avoid getting bored). Then Barrow-downs are too long and too easy in their current form.

OTOH, I think the farm and the Bombadil fight is hard enough to fit the mood. Old Forest too, most often, now that mushrooms almost do not appear there, but you don't have to fight through Old Forest, which makes it perhaps too easy. Another guardian at the bottom? Move Old Man Willow to the bottom but remove his teleportation spell and make him easier to detect (otherwise he is a nightmare to track down on a large level)? Or perhaps make the bottom level small, instead of the top one? Also, Buckland is too large and too tame for a special and hard area you are supposed to clear quickly. If you want to fit Barrow-downs, which may be a good idea, I think it has to be changed and probably made inaccessible from Bree. Then rebalance the remaining Bree dungeons...

To be continued...

[andrewdoull]

Any chance to get a "real" debug version which works with M$ Windwbugger soon ?

I would really like to continue playing .. but crashing every 3rd green bat isn't really fun ..

I'll see what I can do. Unfortunately, my only free time is spent travelling at the moment.
(Written on a bus)

Andrew

[Bandobras]

The only thing that I'm not really sure about is Dol Guldur - I don't recall much about it in the books and Wikipedia doesn't say much about it other than it was "south of Mirkwood".

I'd say it's the optional "ultra-ending" of the Hobbit plot. Plus, entering it marks the transision from 'The Hobbit' times to LotR times. Of course the implementation of this idea could be improved. In particular, it should probably be the hardest location of the North. Perhaps it is --- Caradhras is totally optional and everybody knows it's unwise to go there. What else is there? The Balrog of Moria? He's deep down and you can't even get there without a map. OTOH, I'm not sure if conquering Dol Guldur is a big enough event wrt game-play --- you don't get a lof of treasure, not many locations are opened (any?), etc. I understand Sauron came back into play very soon after being forced out of Dol Guldur, but still, that seemed a glorius victory at the time to those aware of the battle.

The dungeons of Angmar & Angband seem a little tacked-on; they don't really fit into the theme of the rest of the game. Are there any ideas on fleshing out Angband a bit more?

Apart of shortening it? Who knows... Actually I think Angband is a kind of an in-joke. Just see the description. But I think, realistically, the ruins of Angmar where still there at the times. After Sauron returned (trigger it by the descruction of Dol Guldur? or by entering?) the Angmar's ghosts were roused in Barrow Downs and elsewhere, probably at Angmar itself, too. About Angband, I'm not sure. Was is under the ocean or north and west of Angmar under the ice?

Maybe taking some of the events from the Silmarillion (though I read that so long ago, I don't really remember if it would be suitable)? I guess part of the problem is the inconsistencies in timelines...

Indeed. And the area of Silmarillion events is mostly west of the current map, mostly under the ocean. With The Hobbit and LotR we have the same geographical arena and only a few decades of time discrepancy. On the other hand, if you have the other-planes dungeons (Numenor, Temple and Castle, which I'd substitute with some real South Middle Earth locations for exactly this reason) you can also have a dimensional gate to Silmarillion or a game prelude, mode (a la Thrall mode) or ending located in Silmarillion.

Morgoth was long gone by the time the events in the LotR roll around.

Well, not quite. Yes, he was banished from Middle Earth (and even Arda), but having a big part in its design, eventual creation and then spending a long time corrupting it, he was in some strange way present. It is said that Arda was Mortgoth's "One Ring" and that without Arda he was even less powerful than Sauron without his One Ring.

I agree the idea that he somehow returned to Middle Earth after the LotR times is cheesy. But I can easily stand the idea that a hero upon finding an intact, hidden part of Angband (Silmarillion says there were some left) via some half-magical portals in the ruins of Angmar (which is, in turn, a real geographic location) can somewhat contact and defeat Morgoth or his shadow or something in the Void or projected from the Void, etc. As long as we don't try to place "Angband" on the map or explain Morgoth presence in-game, I don't mind the anachronism. If an arbiatrary bunch of lesser heroes from Silmarillion were resurrected I'd be incredulous, but semi-gods/angels/demons may occasionally break the rules.

[Fede]

I'd say it's the optional "ultra-ending" of the Hobbit plot. Plus, entering it marks the transision from 'The Hobbit' times to LotR times. Of course the implementation of this idea could be improved. In particular, it should probably be the hardest location of the North. Perhaps it is --- Caradhras is totally optional and everybody knows it's unwise to go there. What else is there? The Balrog of Moria? He's deep down and you can't even get there without a map. OTOH, I'm not sure if conquering Dol Guldur is a big enough event wrt game-play --- you don't get a lof of treasure, not many locations are opened (any?), etc. I understand Sauron came back into play very soon after being forced out of Dol Guldur, but still, that seemed a glorius victory at the time to those aware of the battle.

Maybe I remember it wrong, but didn't Gandalf enter Dol Guldur during 'The Hobbit' after he left Bilbo and the dwarves and before he returned after Smaug's death?
I think after Gandalf entered Dol Guldur he did also know that the Necromancer was in fact Sauron.

[lenochware]

Fountains are 0 rather than O

I seee...! With my font it looks exactly the same.

Bug report: I had problem when I enter level 2 of Mirkwood dungeon - game crashes. (WinXP, 0.6.2 gold) It just froze for a few seconds when I press ">", harddisk LED blinks, and after that, game window disappears. 2 hours of playing was gone.... Maybe it would be useful add "autosave when entering new level" option - something similar already exists in ZAngband.

btw. I like new terrain features - transparent ice walls, bushes with thorns...etc.etc. - great!

I dont't understand how rune stones works. I had spell "Frost bolt" on one rune stone, but it disappears after a while. Is it normal?

I got a message "You feel very well" after I drink from some fountain - maybe it would be interesting rename these fountains after tried on "Fountain of health" or something like that... similar like with trying potion.

I saw somewhere stone well ">" (entrace to the next level) : maybe it would be fun if some entraces goes to harder levels than other - and it would be noticed after doing (r)ecall on ">" ..?

[Bandobras]

Maybe I remember it wrong, but didn't Gandalf enter Dol Guldur during 'The Hobbit' after he left Bilbo and the dwarves and before he returned after Smaug's death?
I think after Gandalf entered Dol Guldur he did also know that the Necromancer was in fact Sauron.

Oh, yes, you are right. That explains why entering Dol Guldur is so important in Un, while conquering it is not. But this also means entering Dol Guldur is a part of "The Hobbit" plot, while conquering it is on the boundary between the plots. In fact, IIRC driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur moved him to Mordor, and this feels more a part of LotR storyline.

Edit: But this contradicts the current Un behaviour, where even entering Dol Guldur changes some locations to their LotR setup. Hmm...

[Arralen]

I found the The Encyclopedia of Arda to be a great help concerning everything middle-earth ...

[Bandobras]

I found the The Encyclopedia of Arda to be a great help concerning everything middle-earth ...

I also use The Thain's Book (http://www.tuckborough.net/) when the above fails.

[Fede]

Oh, yes, you are right. That explains why entering Dol Guldur is so important in Un, while conquering it is not. But this also means entering Dol Guldur is a part of "The Hobbit" plot, while conquering it is on the boundary between the plots. In fact, IIRC driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur moved him to Mordor, and this feels more a part of LotR storyline.

I agree.

Btw, Dol Guldur was conquered and at least partially demolished by Celeborn at the end of the War of the Ring, so it's probably more LotR-ish, anyway it's not an important matter.

Edit: But this contradicts the current Un behaviour, where even entering Dol Guldur changes some locations to their LotR setup. Hmm...

Uhm, why is this bad?

[Bandobras]

# Back to the LotR - through Moria
59:the door to Moria (20)
14:west Moria entrance (6-24)
	16:west gates of Moria (33-36)
60:the mines of Moria (22-30)
15:east Moria entrance (13-24)
	17:east gates of Moria (36)
	61:Khazad-Dum (30-40)
# Or alternate to Moria through the mountains

I'd change it to

# Back to the LotR - to Lothlorien through Moria
14:west Moria entrance (6-24)
	16:west gates of Moria (33-36)
59:the door to Moria (20)
60:the mines of Moria (22-30)
15:east Moria entrance (13-24)
	17:east gates of Moria (36)
	61:Khazad-Dum (30-40)
# Or to Lothlorien not via Moria, but through the mountains

because the door, leads to mines, which leads to Khazad-Dum. The door is not in front of the west entrance (14), but is a way through the closed gates (16).

Then, after consulting your map, I think I'd put the way south from Lothlorien, that is Lothlorien, Parth Galen, Dead Marshes and Ithilien. Then also Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol. This is how Frodo went, isn't it?

Then, or perhaps before the Moria section, I'd put

# Or alternate way around south
64:Dunland (9)
	65:Dunland in war rage (22-37)
40:Isengard (3-33)
	23:Isengard, war-ready (21-40)
	66:emptied Isengard (30-45)
20:Fangorn Forest (20)
	37:Fangorn, aflame (27)
	62:the Ent Moot (21)
21:Edoras (8-27)
	22:Hornburg (22-40)

And in this way we got rid of the
# Misc Forests
section.

The rest, and the general idea, are great. Feel free to do this your way, of course. This is only reordering of the dungeons, which are totally chaotically ordered right now, and will remain so without your help...

[Bandobras]

Bug report: I had problem when I enter level 2 of Mirkwood dungeon - game crashes. (WinXP, 0.6.2 gold) It just froze for a few seconds when I press ">", harddisk LED blinks, and after that, game window disappears. 2 hours of playing was gone....

Sorry about that. Cannot reproduce here. Let's hope gold2 with some memory corruptions fixed, will be more stable.

Maybe it would be useful add "autosave when entering new level" option - something similar already exists in ZAngband.

A very good idea, especially given the speed of Un development that leaves behind bugfixing...

I dont't understand how rune stones works. I had spell "Frost bolt" on one rune stone, but it disappears after a while. Is it normal?

I've never cast from runestones. I guess you should have several runestones to cast any given spell. When you drop one of them, casting is not longer possible. It may be buggy, though. Actually, if it's so rarely used, perhaps remove it? Casting from terrain and taking spell notes from terrain is already fun enough, with much easier UI and logic behind it, I think. We have a bit of featuritis around here, I guess.

I got a message "You feel very well" after I drink from some fountain - maybe it would be interesting rename these fountains after tried on "Fountain of health" or something like that... similar like with trying potion.

Potion flavours? Interesting. I wouldn't be suprised if it was already implemented but buggy, disabled or not enough data supplied into the script files... BTW, you know the fountain description says what it does when quaffed?

I saw somewhere stone well ">" (entrace to the next level) : maybe it would be fun if some entraces goes to harder levels than other - and it would be noticed after doing (r)ecall on ">" ..?

Specify 'harder'.

[Big Al]

Thanks for the comments all; I don't have time to respond fully right now (got a new summer job working from 8am to 9pm, six days a week - so my 'band hacking is pretty much limited to one day a week), but I'll get around to it eventually.

[andrewdoull]

I've never cast from runestones. I guess you should have several runestones to cast any given spell. When you drop one of them, casting is not longer possible. It may be buggy, though. Actually, if it's so rarely used, perhaps remove it? Casting from terrain and taking spell notes from terrain is already fun enough, with much easier UI and logic behind it, I think. We have a bit of featuritis around here, I guess.

You're pretty much right. Runes are already useful enough.

Potion flavours? Interesting. I wouldn't be suprised if it was already implemented but buggy, disabled or not enough data supplied into the script files... BTW, you know the fountain description says what it does when quaffed?

The whole flavoured fountains thing needs to be sorted someway or other. I was going to do that along with flavoured trees...

It's a minor enough a part of the game at the moment, that it can wait...

Andrew