Newbie questions about Sangband

[FlayedOne]

Hello,

Recently I started playing Sangband, and I must say, I'm really confused.

I'm trying to play a rouge / fighter kind of character using melee with light weapons, so I invest mainly in burglary and dodge.

1. What surprised me is the fact, that the more points I invest in burglary, the lower my hit-rate on dungeon level 1. Shouldn't it get higher, since I'm using a sabre (pretty light weapon, or is it too heavy for a burglar?)? A fresh character gets around 88 hit rate against a grey mold, but a character with 8 burglary gets ~75. Investing into swordsmanship doesn't seem to affect that either. Only my fighting skill description changes. Having a (+6,+6) sabre doesn't seem to change it either. The same goes for average damage. What is even more perplexing is that no matter whether I use a (+6,+6) sabre of (0,0) dagger my average damage after attacking a grey mold is stuck at 4 or 5.

Am I misunderstanding something? Should I ignore the values? It seems like I'm killing faster with a sabre than a dagger.

2. Is a short sword a better weapon for a burglar than a sabre? What does "light" mean in the burglary skill description?

3. Should I invest into swordsmanship as well, or is it better to invest only in burglary if I'm using light weapons?

4. How do I steal? Supposedly burglary lvl 4 should allow me to do it, but I don't know how I can use the skill.

5. Any advice for this type of character? Right now, I'm investing mostly into burglary, dodge and perception, with a few points in stealth and disarming. Is it too many skills? I'm dying horribly pretty often. I tried using swordsmanship instead of burglary, but it didn't seem to make any difference.

-edit-
6. It seems like almost all monster on levels 5-10 use acid, which burns through my armor very fast. Thankfully my dodge is lvl 30, so I have 17 AC without armor, but it still is really annoying. The damage also burns through my scrolls. How do you deal with it?

[Malak Darkhunter]

I'm not an expert here but I play Sang regualry, you have to invest some skills into at least of the weapon like professions..ie swordsmanship for sharp weapons, jousting for hafted weapons, clubbing for blunt weapons, as you raise those skills your ability to hit more often goes up with the skills, you can raise them up too skill level 100..raising a skill in one of those abilities make you better with that type of weapon....there is also karate and wrestling, unarmed skills.

as far as light weapons goes I believe they are for weapons under 10lbs ? something like that but again that's just a guess from something I read once..you can also dual wield lighter weapons.

as far as hit rate dropping down, have you checked your armor modifiers?
heavier armor often bears a penalty to hit..shown in brackets ie (augemented chainmail [-2]. the -2 is a negative to hit due to armor weight.

fire and acid will destroy player inventory. Acid will eat up your armor finding items that resist acid will protect your equipment, it's a pain but that's the nature of the game. once you survive long enough to start finding artifacts your equipment will be pretty much resistant to acid, but paper scrolls and stuff will not...in sang there are also blankets of protection that protect your inventory..but be warned! some of those are often cursed. Disenchantment will negate the pluses on your equipment so beware of those attacks also. good luck on your burglar, right now I am playing a no artifact dwarf using forging skills, it's been tough but it's also a lot of fun.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Sang also uses the Oangband combat system, where heavier weapons can give more damaging criticals than lighter weapons, so you might be able to kill faster if you make a good hit with a heavier weapons, there is a thread about that somewhere here.

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=2954&highlight=Oangband+combat

To use "skills" like stealing, weapon forging ex it will probably be under either the "p" key or the "[" key should display a list of usuable skills.

[FlayedOne]

Thank you for the reply. After reading through some threads, the combat system seems like an improvement compared to the old Vanilla.

The rouge died on dlvl 8 .

Stealing and trap setting is not under 'p' or '['. The only talent I had was Sneaking despite having lvl 20 burglary. I couldn't find anything in the commands list either.

About acid damage - so there is no way around it - I have to dive because otherwise I'm losing my whole armor set everytime I go into the dungeon? Perhaps I should get some ranged attack... Does 'spiritual hammer' spell (holy damage) work against all, or only against 'evil' monsters?

What equipment should I be carrying to stay alive? Right now I'm carrying:
- 5 scrolls of teleport - should I replace them with staves? You can't read when you're blind / confused , but they have no failure rate. To use staves I would have to put points into magical device skill
- 4 scrolls of word of recall - just in case of fire / acid / theft
- 5 potions of cure critical wounds
- a few potions of speed - usefull for both escapes and fights
Should I add anything / switch it to something else?

I made a new character, this time I'm trying to make something similar to the monk from Zangband - currently on dlvl 5:

Karate:                  19
Dodge:                   20
Perception:              10
Stealth:                 10
Spellcasting:             5
Magical Power:            5
Holy Aliance:             5
Spell Resistance:         5
Disarming:                5

A few things seem really strange though:
1. I noticed the exp you gain through using unidentified potions / scrolls / mushrooms / etc is really high! Eating a mushroom of blindness at power level 12 increased my experience by 25 points! Taking into consideration that potion of restore X are always for sale in the town, are there any really dangerous (I mean permanent harm / instant death) potions / scrolls / mushrooms / etc ? I remember potions of Death from the old times, are they still around?

2. A character with 10 Karate seems to deal more damage than a character with 25 Swordsmanship / 20 burglary with a (+5,+5) sabre ;/ I understand that weapons have a higher potential thanks to magical enhancements, but it still seems strange.

3. Even though my current character only fights using Karate, it is constantly grayed out (I don't have enough practice to increase it efficiently). It didn't happen with swordsmanship. What is the reason, and how do I make the situation better? Right now I have 65 unspent experience points, because I'm waiting for Karate to become white.

[Derakon]

The only practical way to avoid acid damage to your equipment is to not get hit by acidic attacks. Mostly that means avoiding the melee attacks of 'j' monsters. You don't have to kill everything you see!

Eventually you can find gear that is immune to acid, and thus cannot itself be damaged. And you can find gear that grants immunity to acid, at which point all of your gear is protected (as are you yourself). But until then, every acid attack will attempt to damage one of your armor slots. Take heart: this does reduce the damage you take by half, assuming the slot selected a) has armor in it, and b) that armor provides a nonzero amount of AC.

[wobbly]

3. Even though my current character only fights using Karate, it is constantly grayed out (I don't have enough practice to increase it efficiently). It didn't happen with swordsmanship. What is the reason, and how do I make the situation better? Right now I have 65 unspent experience points, because I'm waiting for Karate to become white.

Ages since I've played sanband so unsure on this one, but I'd double check your not accidently wrestling instead of using karate. From memory unarmed defaults to wrestling & you need to press a key to switch to karate.

[Nick]

1. I noticed the exp you gain through using unidentified potions / scrolls / mushrooms / etc is really high! Eating a mushroom of blindness at power level 12 increased my experience by 25 points! Taking into consideration that potion of restore X are always for sale in the town, are there any really dangerous (I mean permanent harm / instant death) potions / scrolls / mushrooms / etc ? I remember potions of Death from the old times, are they still around?

I believe every item is survivable, essentially - IIRC potions of death leave you on 0HP.

[Magnate]

Ages since I've played sanband so unsure on this one, but I'd double check your not accidently wrestling instead of using karate. From memory unarmed defaults to wrestling & you need to press a key to switch to karate.

It's the vertical bar character, |, to switch from W to K (which is shown in the left pane). That's why Karate is not being practised.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Potions of death are still around as of version 1.0.0 I am currently playing 1.0.2 and I don't recall them being removed, I am not sure if Sang actually has a stealing or trap setting ability, Sang is a variant of O and i believe O has trap setting, becuase if I recall correctly Nppangband took the trap setting code from Oangband. You used trap setting in those variants by using the + key I beleive, but Nick and Jeff could verify this for me because it's been awhile since i used those functions. I wish Camlost was still around he is the Sangband maintainer and he's been quiet for a long while now.

[Nick]

Yes, trap setting certainly uses '+' in O/FA/NPP. In S I believe monster traps are usually loaded with items, and affect the monster based on that - Magnate would know more detail.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Yes, trap setting certainly uses '+' in O/FA/NPP. In S I believe monster traps are usually loaded with items, and affect the monster based on that - Magnate would know more detail.

Playing Sang I pressed the + key which gave me a message stating that I can make no altercations, so I'm betting that you can either set a trap on an existing monster trap or create a trap or possibly both. Skills.text line 251 I think describes burglary talents and trap setting is one of them

[Malak Darkhunter]

Let me try and type this out..Sang has several skills for Burglary

Burgarly
Allows you steal objects from monsters,lock doors and get highly effective sneak attacks against sleeping monsters and backstabs against fleeing ones.Renders you farm more silent in all kinds of non magical combat, and allows you to set deadly traps for unwarry monsters.Burglars become much worse with very heavy weapons but much better with light ones as their skills improve. If you raise burglary to the point at which you can steal level 4,shopkeepers start to mistrust you, your charisma drops by 2, you must join the burglars guild to get the full effects of increasing your skill past 20 otherwise it is halved.
Burglary reduces the cost of other skills:disarming by 3/4 ,stealth by 1/3 and dodging by 1/3.
Burglary grants 3 talentsetect and Nab objects(40), poison ammo (55), and hit and run (70), It also grants 3 special abilities: Stealing (4) locking doors (7), and trap setting (10).

[FlayedOne]

First of all, thank you guys for the replies and help.

The only practical way to avoid acid damage to your equipment is to not get hit by acidic attacks. Mostly that means avoiding the melee attacks of 'j' monsters. You don't have to kill everything you see!

Eventually you can find gear that is immune to acid, and thus cannot itself be damaged. And you can find gear that grants immunity to acid, at which point all of your gear is protected (as are you yourself). But until then, every acid attack will attempt to damage one of your armor slots. Take heart: this does reduce the damage you take by half, assuming the slot selected a) has armor in it, and b) that armor provides a nonzero amount of AC.

Thanks. Things have gotten much better since I got Spiritual Hammer spell. Also the monsters got much more rare below level 10.

Does double resist (1 permanent and 1 temporary) protect equipment and inventory in Sangband? The documentation for this variant is really... erm... not comprehensive:P.

Ages since I've played sanband so unsure on this one, but I'd double check your not accidently wrestling instead of using karate. From memory unarmed defaults to wrestling & you need to press a key to switch to karate.

It's the vertical bar character, |, to switch from W to K (which is shown in the left pane). That's why Karate is not being practised.

Thanks, but I did switch to Karate. I do get practice in it, but it's really slow. I have 100s of unspent skill points waiting for it to become white every time I want to increase it by more than one level.

I believe every item is survivable, essentially - IIRC potions of death leave you on 0HP.

Thanks, so this means the optimal way to get experience is to try things out. My record was getting 250 exp for trying out a wand of clone monster, while my most expansive skill costed 30 points at that time.

And lastly, thank you guys! The '+' works for traps and stealing! I'd never guess that, since it's listed in the commands list as 'alter grid'!

I have two more questions. One is a simple plea for help:
I'm on dlvl 11. I got this level feeling "You feel there is something special here..." in a pink color. I assume this means there is an artifact on the level. The problem is, that I searched through 3/4th of the level and haven't found anything out of ordinary. The other 1/4th got infested by a mixture of Gray Rats and Giant Fruit Flies. (Screenshot attached, green dots mark the doors I used to cut off the infestation)

Is there any way a monk using Karate and very little Piety magic can either clear the infestation, or somehow explore this region? I've racked up 1,5k Fly kills and 1k rat kills, but they breed faster than I can kill them. I have a 'circle kick' talent, but it only confuses monsters around me. Is there anything I can do (or carry with me) to make sure the situation doesn't repeat?

The second question is about Oaths. Form what I understand - there is no Oath for the hybrid character types(ie. a monk), right? If I take Oath of Iron I won't be able to cast Piety spells, and if I take a magical Oath than my character will get bad at combat. Are hybrids supposed not to take oaths?

[Malak Darkhunter]

A special feeling on a level could represent an artifact or it could represent a monster pit, sounds like you may have found a zoo..always check piles of rubble for items..in sangband I once found Ringil under a pile of rubble, some rooms also have hidden items that aren't visible until you walk over them as well so remember to check throughly.

Once you take an oath other skill trees are forbidden to you, it is a dedication to a certain skill set, so no if you want a hybrid character then do not take an oath, the downside of this is the more powerful spells won't be availiable to you later on in the game as your character grows. Sangband allows for interesting character builds, which Is why I love this variant.

Other messages you might see as you raise your perception skill.

1.)You sense a powerful object-most likely an out of depth item.

2.)you sense a remarkable object- probably a really good ego item, or other item that is way out of depth.

3.) you sense a powerful prescense- a unique monster or out of depth monster.

4.) you sense a terrible prescense- a demon or monster that is very evil and really powerful... (Balrog of Moria) (Greater Demon)..(One of the Ring Wraiths)...those are just examples..

5.) you sense a horde of monsters- a monster pit, zoo,graveyard, could also be uniques with escorts.

6.) you sense something special on this level- honestly this is rare so usually I'm looking for artifacts...look out for scrolls of questing, this takes you to a different levels where artifacts are usually generated as well as strong ego items, there is generaly some really powerful monsters.(This is a fun level, Love this item.)

pre-cognition messages about levels become more accurate with a higher perception skill, also once you get perception up to skill level (55) you can sense area, which is the same as magic mapping.

As far as killing an infestation either use several wands of stinking cloud, potions of speed(you kill them faster than they breed).a mass banishment scroll, or divide and counquer, seal them in rooms you know aren't holding anything of value and try to clear all the hallways, if the infestation is too much though and you have no other way eradicating them then it is best to just leave the level..in sang at deep dungeon depths there are mana flies and chaos tiles, kill them quick or run like hell.

[Magnate]

Thanks, but I did switch to Karate. I do get practice in it, but it's really slow. I have 100s of unspent skill points waiting for it to become white every time I want to increase it by more than one level.

Ah, then you are not killing the right things. Sangband has quite harsh diminishing returns on xp. Combat skills practice the quickest (cf. trying to practice devices or burglary), so if you're having trouble keeping them white you're killing stuff that's way too weak and you need to dive and seek tougher enemies.

Is there any way a monk using Karate and very little Piety magic can either clear the infestation, or somehow explore this region? I've racked up 1,5k Fly kills and 1k rat kills, but they breed faster than I can kill them. I have a 'circle kick' talent, but it only confuses monsters around me. Is there anything I can do (or carry with me) to make sure the situation doesn't repeat?

A wand of stinking cloud is a cheap early find that's ideal for clearing low-level breeders. Not worth it if you aren't raising Devices though.

The second question is about Oaths. Form what I understand - there is no Oath for the hybrid character types(ie. a monk), right? If I take Oath of Iron I won't be able to cast Piety spells, and if I take a magical Oath than my character will get bad at combat. Are hybrids supposed not to take oaths?

Correct. Oaths reward specialisation. Leon - Sangband's (re)designer - went to great lengths to discourage players from learning too many skills, and still felt he hadn't gone far enough.