[Announce] Poschengband 2.0.0 Released

[HugoVirtuoso]

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything to suggest Possessor body ejections

[Derakon]

What's the reasoning behind adding the ejections, anyway? I'm mostly just curious.

[chris]

What's the reasoning behind adding the ejections, anyway? I'm mostly just curious.

It is mostly intended as a balance mechanism.

In the initial release, possessing was a bit OP in the sense that you can end up with a full equipment set, +10 to 20 speed, +150 to 200 AC, multiple key resists and a full suite of key powers (healing, mana storm, invulnerability, etc). Some monsters even offered the equivalent of PDSM for free (Though I removed the easy early one)!

But perhaps a full body ejection is a bad idea ... I'm willing to try something better. Or perhaps the mechanic is bad. Maybe the corpse should always survive? Dunno ...

Finally, I'd rather not have the mechanic of the player "parking" inside an uber corpse for most of the game. Switching should be forced sometimes and there are currently many, many corpses that are powerful enough to win with.

In the meantime, you can mitigate this mechanic by:

[1] Not letting your hp go below 25% of max. Really, this is something you should be doing anyway, right?

[2] Choosing your equipment set to lessen the effect. For example, don't walk around with a completely full pack. Keep your speed rings on your first two slots so you don't lose them. Bring a backup corpse or "create" one on the level and leave it around for a strategic retreat. Choose a helmet or cloak that offers needed protection should the worst case occur (e.g., something like Amber shouldn't be passed up, but maybe a crown of the magi is worth considering).

Is this a dumb idea? It wouldn't be my first ...

[Derakon]

If the goal is to keep Possessors busy, well, possessing, then I suggest that corpses should gradually decay while they're "in use". So every time you possess something, you're on a timer (say, 10k player turns or thereabouts; it shouldn't be measured in game turns since speed varies so much). You'd better find a new corpse before the old one wears out!

My big concern with the whole kicked-out concept is that it mostly just encourages cautious play. Cautious play is boring, and it has too many incentives anyway. Encourage the player to take risks!

As a happy side-benefit, my suggestion would mean that you wouldn't have to worry about uniques dropping corpses, since they're of limited use anyway.

Though, you might want to halt decay while on the surface, or something along those lines. Overland travel is very slow.

[HugoVirtuoso]

Here's my question after doing some version 2.0.2 playtesting:
(1) What are the minimum clvl requirements to possess higher level corpses?

Indeed, you won't be able to Possess significantly higher level corpses vs. your current level. Some of my dead characters (e.g., Hugo$oul 24-26) were not able to possess an Orc Shaman, Giant Red Scorpion, or Killer White Beetle at clvl 1 right away, because I was not "powerful" enough.

[chris]

If the goal is to keep Possessors busy, well, possessing, then I suggest that corpses should gradually decay while they're "in use". So every time you possess something, you're on a timer (say, 10k player turns or thereabouts; it shouldn't be measured in game turns since speed varies so much). You'd better find a new corpse before the old one wears out!

My big concern with the whole kicked-out concept is that it mostly just encourages cautious play. Cautious play is boring, and it has too many incentives anyway. Encourage the player to take risks!

As a happy side-benefit, my suggestion would mean that you wouldn't have to worry about uniques dropping corpses, since they're of limited use anyway.

Though, you might want to halt decay while on the surface, or something along those lines. Overland travel is very slow.

I prefer an option that increases the strategy aspect of the game. I did consider the timer approach, but as you point out, that is subject to some undesirable drawbacks.

Here's an analogous situation. In Hengband, there are classes that can ride monsters. As such, they gain speed based on their current mount but gain no speed bonus from their equipment. So the tendency is to ignore speed when choosing your gear. After all, why bother? Also, they might as well ignore encumbrance too since they are riding, after all, and can carry as much weight as they like.

However, there is a game mechanic whereby the player can be thrown from their current mount. Additionally, their mount can be killed out from under them, leaving them standing on their own two feet, and presumably rather slow to boot. If merely tossed, they can try to mount back up, but the fail rate is significant enough that it may take many turns to succeed.

But there are strategies to mitigate this. Bringing a spare mount is always an option, but also, you probably don't want to ignore your base speed as well, even though you gain no obvious benefit while riding. Also, you can fight in strategic locations to prevent being dismounted. Etc.

Admittedly, being dismounted as a riding class is less severe than being ejected as a possessor, but its in the same ball park. Again, you cannot count on keeping your uber GWoP mount forever: The Serpent can and probably will kill it while you are riding.

The point is, it adds strategy to the game. Its a mechanic that were it missing, people would complain about its addition. But it is a mechanic that is still possible to deal intelligently with.

For the possessor, getting ejected should not kill you. If you die before getting a turn to react, then you would have died in the absence of the mechanic (most likely) since the native form now has more hp than 25% of most (all?) monster forms. Of course, if you neglect the speed aspect, then, well, that is another story. And if you don't plan ahead for what to do if (when!) this happens, then you need to do so.

I wouldn't say this mechanic unduly favors cautious play at all. Letting your hp go below 25% is suicidal, though it will probably happen a few times in the late game (and perhaps more often in the early game).

[Derakon]

Well, you have far more familiarity with the state of play of your game than I do. I never played Hengband or Chengband and it's been probably over a decade since I played Zangband. If it works, it works, and I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[kingvictory2003]

I would absolutely agree on not having a corpse timer--given the rather slow regen rates on most enemies, I could see going through a high number of corpses while trying to play conservatively, given the new corpse-ejection mechanic. Also, having a highly desirable corpse drop is far from a guarantee, so it would be sad to know a good corpse's days are immediately numbered.

Anyway, I should try what Arjen is doing, and avoid humanoids. I think the real killer for me is lack of good detection skills in a majority of nonmagical humanoids, which makes scumming for rods of monster detection, trap location and enlightenment extremely onerous. And yes, I consider it suicide not to have a means of detection in the deeper dungeons

Hmm...I'll roll a new one now, and leave Posse (Loki) parked for now.

[Derakon]

Just to clarify, I was suggesting a corpse timer instead of getting ejected. I don't think having both would be a good idea.

[emulord]

Can I give a suggestion?

Fail rates on scrolls are too high. ?Phase and ?Tele are similar to _Tele, which feels wrong, considering _Tele can be used while confused/blinded.

I've been savescumming, because failing ?tele twice in a row with ~18 int is pretty shitty. This and fear mechanic rewards boring safe play where you *never* even see/detect a dangerous enemy. It's too severe.
Fear and insanity from OoD enemies is good enough alone imo. Don't also remove the way to flee from them.

I'd like to see basic scroll fail rates do this type of progression.
Tele level being a little harder, and destruct being a good amount harder (but still 0% at 18/200)

I'm not sure what the actual table/formula is, but Id like to suggest this:
3: 60%
4: 50%
5: 40%
6: 30%
7: 20
8: 15
9: 13
10: 11
11: 9
12: 8
13: 7
14: 6
15: 5
16: 4
17: 3
18: 2.5 (Versus ~5%)
18/10: 2
18/20: 1.5
18/30: 1
18/40: .5
18/50+: 0

[HugoVirtuoso]

Can I give a suggestion?

Fail rates on scrolls are too high. ?Phase and ?Tele are similar to _Tele, which feels wrong, considering _Tele can be used while confused/blinded.

The rates are a lot worse when playing Berserk Troll-like characters as well.

[Derakon]

If you're playing a berserker, then fail rates don't matter one bit, 'cause you can't use 'em anyway.

[HugoVirtuoso]

If you're playing a berserker, then fail rates don't matter one bit, 'cause you can't use 'em anyway.

That's true for the Berserker class. But, the !Berserk has a similar effect...very high failure rates for Scrolls or Magical Devices. Thus, a ?Teleportation won't save you when you're Berserk from the !Berserk Strength. Nonetheless, this is intended as designed.

[Roch]

"[1] Not letting your hp go below 25% of max. Really, this is something you should be doing anyway, right?"

Where's the fun in that? But seriously, I may be the only player that fairly often finds themself below the 25% threshold, but that means I've got to teleport more (takes more time if I want to circle back) or use more healing potions/charges (which means more grinding for consumables, and which I am usually too cheap to do without grumbling, hence the instant grumbling). I'd vote for a lower threshold -- say 10%.

That said I haven't played a possessor yet, so I really ought to try it before I criticize.

So let me balance the critique with a compliment: crazy good work on the game. It's a lot of fun.

[HugoVirtuoso]

So let me balance the critique with a compliment: crazy good work on the game. It's a lot of fun.

AFAIK, Hengband stood fot eccentric Angband. chris took the 'eccentric' aspect to another level. And this statement is meant to be a compliment!!!