Halls of Mist 1.3.0

[Mikko Lehtinen]

A few thoughts:

1. Torches - I actually like the system as is and don't think it needs to change. I've been playing with mostly low strength characters, and shorter duration torches would mean having to carry more, which is already difficult.

2. Combat - I would say not make any dramatic changes unless they truly improve gameplay. I really like halls of mist as is and I'm concerned that making too many changes will ruin some of the great stuff in the game. I think bows should be left as part of the game. If realism is a concern can have a command to switch between melee weapons and the bow - this would take one turn.
I think the best part about the game is that you really have to use everything in your disposal to win some encounters - stand on tables, use powders, use wands. I would be all for anything that enhances that type of gameplay, including additional terrain types or ways to make stuff in your inventory more effective.

Perhaps you are right about the torches. Of the two clocks, this is the more frustrating if set too tight. Mist phantasm clock can be made tighter and more dangerous -- for example by generating phantasms awake, as ekolis suggested.

Unbalanced weapons might be the biggest problem right now, so I'm not particularly concerned about breaking things. Similarly, armor is too good at the moment, and it's impossible for the player to judge how important AC is.

Thrown weapons would come in stacks and function very similarly to bows. They have one big plus: they double as light melee weapons for characters with very high dex. No need to waste "real" melee weapon slots for weapons like Bullwhip that are junk for most characters.

A big part of the new combat system will be rebalancing the weapon list better. This time I want to ensure that combat gear gets better the deeper you descend. The original system was made for 100 levels, rebalanced for 48 levels very quickly, and that's why the weapon balance is a bit off at the moment.

I see lots of potential plusses in the new system: more interesting equipment choices, better balance, different equipment are good against different monsters like in Sil, and almost perfect transparency of mechanics.

[buzzkill]

edit: also, he was sleeping when I encountered him, so I ran up and charged at him since I was playing a templar... doesn't letting phantasms spawn asleep kind of defeat the purpose?

Along these lines, should mist creatures flee?

[Squeak]

A few thoughts:

1. Torches - I actually like the system as is and don't think it needs to change. I've been playing with mostly low strength characters, and shorter duration torches would mean having to carry more, which is already difficult.

2. Combat - I would say not make any dramatic changes unless they truly improve gameplay. I really like halls of mist as is and I'm concerned that making too many changes will ruin some of the great stuff in the game. I think bows should be left as part of the game. If realism is a concern can have a command to switch between melee weapons and the bow - this would take one turn.
I think the best part about the game is that you really have to use everything in your disposal to win some encounters - stand on tables, use powders, use wands. I would be all for anything that enhances that type of gameplay, including additional terrain types or ways to make stuff in your inventory more effective.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Good points, both!

[ekolis]

I ran into a phantasmal orc, and I wondered why he was shimmering - was he a unique? - so I 'l'ooked at him, and he seemed perfectly normal to me. Only upon defeating him did I discover that he was a phantasm. Maybe the word "phantasmal" could be prefixed to phantasmal monsters' names when you look at them?

edit: also, he was sleeping when I encountered him, so I ran up and charged at him since I was playing a templar... doesn't letting phantasms spawn asleep kind of defeat the purpose?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Maybe simply 2000 for all torches?

[buzzkill]

How much fuel would you give to the torches? At the moment it's 2000 for wooden torches, 3000 for enchanted torches, and 4000 for ego torches.

And how does the mist phantasm clock feel? Is it tight enough?

Maybe just invert the numbers for starters, 2000 ego, 3000 enchanted (never bought one, $ always to tight), 4000 wooden. To take a step further 1000, 2000, 3000, or to make egos really matter as a clock 500, 1000, 2000. Since ego torches are typically found in stacks, I don't see even the last option as crippling. BTW, torches of brightness are kick-ass, stealth/thievery (1-radius) are horrible.

I've had encounters mist monsters (level clearing), but few and far between and nothing too tough. I'd still advocate for a per level turn counter as suggested earlier in this thread or maybe a message "The mist grows thicker." every x (1000?) turns. Counting turns by torch turns doesn't work, not that it really matters much.

BTW, I really like the unique drops, more than any other variant I've played. They almost always drop something useful. Maybe it's just because "finding" good gear is so hard, but whatever it is, it's working.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Here's a mock-up of the stats & skills potion of the character sheet.

I think I managed to list every single game effect that is derived from the five stats here. And every skill check is a simple percentage check without modifiers. Transparent, ain't it?

13 STRENGTH
   66%  Bash         Burden       30.3/108
   62%  Pierce       Max weapon weight  13
                     Jumping in armour  22
                     {thrown range}
14 DEXTERITY
   59%  Aim          Max blows           3
   55%  Jumping      Current blows       2
   29%  Parry         
   71%  Slash         
10 CUNNING
   15%  Ambush       Night vision        0
   38%  Perception    
   40%  Stealth       
10 KNOWLEDGE
   28%  Alchemy      Known spells        0
   48%  Navigation   {spell fail rates}
   43%  Spell Save   {ritual magic}
10 AURA (max 12)
   41%  Device       Spell range         8
   29%  Presence     {ritual magic}

No bows in this version again... Aim skill governs hitting with powder vials and getting better damage multipliers with perfectly balanced thrown weapons. Otherwise thrown weapons use Slash, Pierce or Bash skills just like melee attacks. Slash is hitting lightly armoured opponents with edged weapons; Pierce is piercing armour with edged weapons; Bash is hitting anyone with a club.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Another thematically appropriate bonus for those who choose to keep diving: make blessings/positive transformations/other long-term but non-permanent bonuses have an increased chance to stay active if you don't go back up.

I like to keep the long-term timing simple: Min Depth = weeks of time. This would muddle this equation somewhat.

And a completely opposite thought if you ever need to make returning to town more appealing: have you thought about bringing in town services, something like npp does? They're horribly overpowered in that variant imo, but I like the idea of them, and gold is scarce enough in mist that it could make for some very interesting tradeoffs. Perhaps limit it to a subset of things that you could do with a magic circle, but with 100% success and much higher cost. This would also solve the "dumb warrior can't ID things" problem.

I'm planning to make Circles of Knowledge identification effects succeed automatically, which should help dumb warriors a lot.

I don't really like store services. But I do have an empty building in the town, and I would like to come up with some use for it... Maybe a school, where you trade Min Depth (again, weeks of time) and some money for training.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

More minor stuff

• Runes, unlike other features, can be detected and manipulated from the back side.
• re: clunky messaging. Revised "Because of his position atop the table, the Foo easily dodges your blow"
• re: odd messaging: received "It hits the table" when using a wand of light (assuming beam of light hit the table).
• re: giant pink scorpion. Contradiction in need of revision. "It is fast and poisonous. It moves at normal speed"
• searching is still referenced as a valid command in skills.txt.
• IMHO ego torches burn for too long.

Thanks for the list!

How much fuel would you give to the torches? At the moment it's 2000 for wooden torches, 3000 for enchanted torches, and 4000 for ego torches.

And how does the mist phantasm clock feel? Is it tight enough?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

The player could become acclimatized to the mists in the dungeons; "going native" would have positive effects on various survival traits (and/or blessing durations, as suggested above). But the town "purifies" the air and removes those benefits. Kind of like getting your sea legs on a long ocean trip.

I like it!

In game terms, it could be as simple as a cumulative +1 to your Cunning for every dungeon level spent underground, topping at +3.

Cunning affects the skills Ambush, Perception and Stealth, and also your infravision range.

EDIT: I'm going to rename infravision to night vision.
EDIT 2: Or am I? That would actually change the mechanic a lot. It wouldn't matter to night vision whether a monster is hot or not.

[Derakon]

The player could become acclimatized to the mists in the dungeons; "going native" would have positive effects on various survival traits (and/or blessing durations, as suggested above). But the town "purifies" the air and removes those benefits. Kind of like getting your sea legs on a long ocean trip.

[jujuben]

Another thematically appropriate bonus for those who choose to keep diving: make blessings/positive transformations/other long-term but non-permanent bonuses have an increased chance to stay active if you don't go back up.

And a completely opposite thought if you ever need to make returning to town more appealing: have you thought about bringing in town services, something like npp does? They're horribly overpowered in that variant imo, but I like the idea of them, and gold is scarce enough in mist that it could make for some very interesting tradeoffs. Perhaps limit it to a subset of things that you could do with a magic circle, but with 100% success and much higher cost. This would also solve the "dumb warrior can't ID things" problem.

[buzzkill]

More minor stuff

• Runes, unlike other features, can be detected and manipulated from the back side.
• re: clunky messaging. Revised "Because of his position atop the table, the Foo easily dodges your blow"
• re: odd messaging: received "It hits the table" when using a wand of light (assuming beam of light hit the table).
• re: giant pink scorpion. Contradiction in need of revision. "It is fast and poisonous. It moves at normal speed"
• searching is still referenced as a valid command in skills.txt.
• IMHO ego torches burn for too long.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I have considered one possible mechanic: if you succeed in Navigation check near a down staircase, you know what kinds of a level it leads to. By skipping town visit you may ensure finding that circle or altar you were looking for, or perhaps closets full of loot.