High races in Quickband

[Antoine]

Hi all

I've been pondering about what to do with the 'high' races in Quickband - Dunedain and High Elves. In the absence of stat potions they are clearly superior, which currently is balanced by big XP penalties, but that kinda goes against the 'quick' thing.

So I'm thinking of a redesign. In the process I'd like to revamp Half-Elves (away from AD&D and towards Tolkien).

Proposal below, any comments much appreciated.

Dunedain

The concept is that the Dunedain should be weak in the early game but strong later.

I'm drawing from the book, where Aragorn was originally looked down on as a mere ruffian, but slowly came into his own as hero and Isildur's Heir. The movie as well, where Aragorn has to accept his destiny in order to achieve greatness and score with Liv Tyler.

So the proposal is that the Dunedain starts out with very mediocre stats, and cannot get into the shops ("The shopkeeper calls you a ruffian and bars the door!"), and gains levels slowly. However at CL10 the shops open and thereafter you get a +2 bonus to a random stat every 3 levels ("You start to accept your destiny! You feel stronger...").

High Elf

I envisage the High Elf as a 'tutorial mode' character - initially very strong, allowing you to get into the game quickly - but quite difficult to actually complete the game.

The High Elf has excellent stats and skills, and See Invis, but at high CL the Doom of Mandos begins to assert itself. This looks like the Curse of Topi Ylinen, with random bad stuff happening every X turns. You may be paralysed for a few turns ("Memories of the Kinslaying overwhelm you! You cannot move...") or your weapon may be blasted ("Your weapon betrays you in your hour of need!") or powerful enemies may be summoned ("The servants of Morgoth assail you!").

Essentially you have to win the game at a very low CL, before the Doom kicks in, or be very lucky.

Half Elf

In Tolkien, the Half Elf is an exceptional individual who has a great destiny before them.

The proposal is to give the Half Elf good stats and skills. They are more likely to find special levels, vaults and artifacts. Monsters and items are frequently out of depth.

A good way for players to quickly tour some of the funkier parts of the game before getting fried by something 20 levels out of depth.

Maia

I'm also thinking about adding the Maiar race, with excellent stats and skills, but the catch is that they have to play ironman. With only 12 levels in the dungeon you would think this would be somewhat difficult.

A.

[Nick]

I've been trying to think of constructive criticism, but can't. These are brilliant ideas. Implement them.

[Netbrian]

The High Elf has excellent stats and skills, and See Invis, but at high CL the Doom of Mandos begins to assert itself. This looks like the Curse of Topi Ylinen, with random bad stuff happening every X turns. You may be paralysed for a few turns ("Memories of the Kinslaying overwhelm you! You cannot move...") or your weapon may be blasted ("Your weapon betrays you in your hour of need!") or powerful enemies may be summoned ("The servants of Morgoth assail you!").

I like the idea of High Elves being doomed to some extent, but I don't like the way this sort of randomly screws over the player without them being able to do much about it. I'd prefer these kinds of effects --

1. Powerful enemies might be summoned, but not necessarily near the player.
2. Monsters are more likely to use their more powerful attacks and abilities, such as teleport to, time breath, gravity breath, etc.
3. More monsters are generated awake.
4. Pits have more exits. (You might also generate monsters in pits awake.
5. Stairs start collapsing behind the player, effectively forcing them to play with disconnected stairs.

I think these increase the difficulties of high elves while maintaining a degree of player control over the situation.

[Antoine]

I've been trying to think of constructive criticism, but can't. These are brilliant ideas. Implement them.

High praise from the First Age expert!

OK, so help me out here. I've got Maiar, High Elves and Half Elves all marked down as '133t stats and skillz'. But how should I flesh this out? What is a Maiar's best stat? What race has the best Intelligence? the best Fighting skill?

A.

[Antoine]

I like the idea of High Elves being doomed to some extent, but I don't like the way this sort of randomly screws over the player without them being able to do much about it. I'd prefer these kinds of effects --

1. Powerful enemies might be summoned, but not necessarily near the player.
2. Monsters are more likely to use their more powerful attacks and abilities, such as teleport to, time breath, gravity breath, etc.
3. More monsters are generated awake.
4. Pits have more exits. (You might also generate monsters in pits awake.
5. Stairs start collapsing behind the player, effectively forcing them to play with disconnected stairs.

I think these increase the difficulties of high elves while maintaining a degree of player control over the situation.

Some good stuff here. I hadn't fleshed out the curse effects 100% so these kind of suggestions are helpful.

> Monsters are more likely to use their more powerful attacks and abilities, such as teleport to, time breath, gravity breath, etc.

I'd probably change this to give Saruman (only) an extra attack mode - not sure what. Something that necessitates another high resist perhaps.

> More monsters are generated awake.

I'd probably change this to an occasional 'everything on the level wakes up'. Message something like "You take out your horn and blow a great blast! You hear many monsters waking up..."

A.

[Timo Pietilä]

High praise from the First Age expert!

OK, so help me out here. I've got Maiar, High Elves and Half Elves all marked down as '133t stats and skillz'. But how should I flesh this out? What is a Maiar's best stat? What race has the best Intelligence? the best Fighting skill?

A.

If you go for doom for High-elves you should rename them as Noldor. Not all high-elves had any kind of judgement set to them, there were also Vanyar and Teleri that are high-elves. Only Noldor and only that part of the Noldor that went to middle-earth against will of the Valar to hunt Silmarils were under doom of Mandos.

From those that were under that curse only Galadriel was forgiven and was allowed back to Valinor (or that was the implication of the Gandalf joining them in the journey to undying lands at the end of the LoTR).

As for "what is the Maiar best stat" answer would be "whatever they want it to be".

[Antoine]

I thought of another good High Elf curse effect - sticky-curse everything they're wearing. "You are struck with covetousness! You will not give away the least of your possessions."

A.

[Netbrian]

I thought of another good High Elf curse effect - sticky-curse everything they're wearing. "You are struck with covetousness! You will not give away the least of your possessions."

A.

I still think that this falls a bit too much under randomly screwing over the player for comfort, but the idea is good. Why not just add a sticky curse to every artifact for high elf players?

[Antoine]

> If you go for doom for High-elves you should rename them as Noldor.

yes which means changing the character backgrounds as well

> As for "what is the Maiar best stat" answer would be "whatever they want it to be".

So then they should have all stats good (+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3?)

A.

[camlost]

I still think that this falls a bit too much under randomly screwing over the player for comfort, but the idea is good. Why not just add a sticky curse to every artifact for high elf players?

Carry or wield? Carry seems more in the spirit to me.

[Nick]

I like the idea of High Elves being doomed to some extent, but I don't like the way this sort of randomly screws over the player without them being able to do much about it.

That doesn't bother me - I think it's an interesting idea, and anyone who doesn't want to be randomly screwed over can just not play that race.

As far as stats go, I would say High Elves (Noldor) should have mostly good stats (+2/+3 ?), but poor wisdom (+0/-1); Half Elves should be all around good (maybe +1/+2 on everything).

[Timo Pietilä]

> If you go for doom for High-elves you should rename them as Noldor.

yes which means changing the character backgrounds as well

> As for "what is the Maiar best stat" answer would be "whatever they want it to be".

So then they should have all stats good (+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3?)

A.

Maiar is a difficult concept for player race. They are not humanoids (unless they want to be), some were so powerful that they are near Valar in power, some weaker, some have some basic nature (water, air, light, fire etc.) some were closer to humans (maiar of Aule) etc.

You can't do "realistic" maiar as player race, so it is up to your imagination to make them.

[EpicMan]

Most of the Maiar who took on fleshly forms had a magic bent (Gandalf, Saruman and co.), Melian, Morgoth, even the Balrog of Moria was said (by Gandalf) to have great magical powers. I would make the Maia strong spellcasters, if the now 'big three' need to have a specialization.

[cowgod]

I've played other 'bands but not actually Quickband, so I don't know how much you should pay attention to my feedback.

Dunedain

So the proposal is that the Dunedain starts out with very mediocre stats, and cannot get into the shops ("The shopkeeper calls you a ruffian and bars the door!"), and gains levels slowly. However at CL10 the shops open and thereafter you get a +2 bonus to a random stat every 3 levels ("You start to accept your destiny! You feel stronger...").

I really like the idea with the stats, but I don't like the bit about the shops. It seems to shut off an important part of the game early on for no particular reason. Starting with lower stats should be enough of an offset for the stat-gaining.

The statistics are cool though: they start out low and increase over time. That sounds awesome.

High Elf

I envisage the High Elf as a 'tutorial mode' character - initially very strong, allowing you to get into the game quickly - but quite difficult to actually complete the game.

The High Elf has excellent stats and skills, and See Invis, but at high CL the Doom of Mandos begins to assert itself. This looks like the Curse of Topi Ylinen, with random bad stuff happening every X turns. You may be paralysed for a few turns ("Memories of the Kinslaying overwhelm you! You cannot move...") or your weapon may be blasted ("Your weapon betrays you in your hour of need!") or powerful enemies may be summoned ("The servants of Morgoth assail you!").

I hate that idea. Seriously, what do you think will happen? Someone will play with the tutorial character, get to a higher level, and then have to quit because all this crap keeps happening.

There should be some other curse you can give them for the Doom of Mandos. Someone suggested cursing all the artifacts, which might be ok.

Half Elf

In Tolkien, the Half Elf is an exceptional individual who has a great destiny before them.

The proposal is to give the Half Elf good stats and skills. They are more likely to find special levels, vaults and artifacts. Monsters and items are frequently out of depth.

A good way for players to quickly tour some of the funkier parts of the game before getting fried by something 20 levels out of depth.

That's fine, I guess.

Maia

I'm also thinking about adding the Maiar race, with excellent stats and skills, but the catch is that they have to play ironman. With only 12 levels in the dungeon you would think this would be somewhat difficult.

A.

Good idea.

[NotMorgoth]

How about making Maiar start out awesome due to their almost godlike status, but hardly get any better? - maybe they can't level up at all, or gain only minor advances when they do. This would make them play a bit like the opposite of Dunedain, with an easy early game but tough late game.

In a normal variant, this might make the early game a bit boring as it would be so easy, but quickband is quick so it wouldn't matter.

If you wanted to make them a bit more complex, each Maia could be associated with a particular Valar and get specific powers related to that, so eg, a Maia of Ulmo would get water-related abilities.