[FA] FAangband development

[Ghen]

Ahh, so I've noticed I can put daggers and such in my quiver. To throw them I use 'v' right?

[Psi]

They make really good rogues and assassins. I have been killing all my DE rogues, but only because I'm going most of the way to Amon Rudh without killing anything.

Well I've bitten the bullet with the death of my End Druid and Weaklin the Dark Elf Assassin has begun his quest. I'll be able to comment better on DEs once I've played one properly.

It seems more logical that specialty gain should be based on experience gain. How come only 5 uniques guard the secrets to player growth? Monsters should guard treasure or access, or something similar.

Alternatively you could describe the Guardians as quest monsters and Eru (or whoever) grants you a speciality for completing your quest. Again you would need a reward for each guardian though.

p.s. my wife thinks flower patches in the wilderness would be really cute.

The FA Wilderness is fantastic and is what really sets FA apart from many variants. What it needs now are more 'interesting rooms' to use dungeon speak (which could include flower patches...). I'd also like to see the river weave around in the Sirion Vale rather than being straight up the middle each time. Also I think it would be great to have water monsters that don't stray from water terrain.

Also, Druids on the 'difficult' starting points don't get a nice weapon - maybe compensate by giving them boots/gloves of FA or a nice armour?

Perhaps Druids could be given a sling to start out with and then give the harder races a Sling of Extra Might perhaps?

More thoughts on specialities...

Since Bandobras' comment on Enhance Magic I have realised that this is only available to Paladins outside of the Strong Casters. I reckon this speciality would probably be more beneficial to melee types with the enhancements to the combat buffing spells. Perhaps open this one up to every class?

Perhaps some of the weapon specialities could be opened up to be selectable? For example Druids have a reasonable shooting skill - I reckon a Grey Elf Druid taking a BOW_SPEED_GREAT speciality would make a very interesting character.

Thoughts on egos...

There are already specialities which raise the casting level of spells. Perhaps there could be items that do this too. ToME already has a similar concept with raising spell power. Borrowing an idea from there would be to have magestaff egos that increase your casting level - A Magestaff of Power (+16) perhaps? Similarly you could do the same on hats or rings/amulets if you wanted to.

Wild suggestions to make races more interesting:

Easterling - not sure why he has 9HD instead of 10?
Green-Elf - give them +1 or +2 to speed
Grey-Elf - BOW_SKILL and WIS make them better than High Elves for some classes. They are better than Green-Elves in most departments already. Probably leave them as they are.
Hobbit - I think this is a real challenge character. As I've said before give them SUST_CON and HOLD_LIFE. To make them a real contender give them REGEN (the amount of meals they have per day suggests they might have this... )
Petty-Dwarf - another challenge race. Give them rBlind like the other dwarves and they are suddenly an interesting choice for an INT based spellcaster.
Dwarf - there is no reason to take a dwarf over a longbeard. Perhaps Dwarves could be more stealthy (well less noisy) than Longbeards and/or have more HD.
Druadan - no need to change.
Longbeard - Maybe make them even less stealthy and swap their HD with dwarves.
Adan - no need to change
High-Elf - I'm always surprised that High-Elves don't have a thn boost per level, but then again the whole package is strong enough already.
Maia - never tried one, but somehow I don't think they need changing (except maybe not allowing them on the ladder...)
Dark-Elf - give them rDark (c'mon they're _Dark_ elves!) and maybe rBlind.
Ent - another great race. However I do think they should have their stealth bonuses whilst stood on any forest *terrain* rather than on any forest level. I would get suspicious seeing a tree walking across a glade for example or attacking a warrior settlement wilderness vault! It also doesn't make sense that an ent can't hide in all the trees on a river level. There may need to be a slight AI change for monsters to make them head for tree squares when they lose sight of an ent (eg if there is only one tree terrain grid then its pretty obvious where the ent is...).
Beorning - another race that is already sufficiently different.

Si

[Nick]

What does rubble and trees do? Do they affect attack modifiers and movement speed?

You take two turns to move into trees or rubble; it's harder to hit stuff in them (monster or player); items disappear from view in them (but are still there). This is true for most races/classes, but elves and druids/rangers get advantages in trees (only one turn to move in, better combat stuff) and dwarves get similar in rubble.

I'm playing a Beorning Paladin now and I think they should get a Wis penalty when shifting into bear form. I see the int goes down.

I'm not one for normal race/class mixes... I played with a longbeard rogue for a while too, picking pockets is fun =)

Hmmm .... don't know about + to WIS for bears. Rogues are lots of fun

The whole wilderness idea is very fun, expecially plains levels. I love the wide-open feel! Thing is, I haven't seen a dungeon yet besides 'undercroft' via a trap door.
Is that a real dungeon?
How can I find dungeon entrances? (or have I just not played long enough, highest character was level 11)

First real dungeon is Amon Rudh, and it's a long walk for a Beorning. Look at the rough map in the help (?, 5, 5). Dungeon entrances are just down stairs.

Everything seems to stack pre-ID as well as some non-ID'ed items stack with known stuff and gets a free ID. Is that a bug or a feature?

Feature!

I uncursed a ring of teleportation, then I Identified it for squelching reasons.. the {uncursed} inscription disappeared. Not sure if the item was re-cursed or not.

No, there's no re-cursing.

When in the wilderness I noticed you use < to go to less danger and > to go to greater danger.. I can get used to it, but most of the time I just press them at random since they have the same graphic using graf tiles.

Yes, good point. I should try to find different tiles for > and <.

All the early monsters run at full speed which is kinda disappointing, I think the AI has improved pathing over vanilla too and won't get stuck in a corner. These lead to a lot of long chases for that last * . I guess I'll have to invest in a bow or something, but this character has 'poor' shooting.

You could try throwing - throwing weapons are more effective than in vanilla, and will go in your quiver. Paladins aren't the greatest throwers, but it may be enough to kill a fleeing monster.

[Ghen]

This post is kinda a stream-of-consciousness from the evening's adventure.

I just started a few new characters in FA. Its a fun game. I tried ToME and Ey way back in 2003ish, but the only serious characters I've ever had have been in vanilla. (Ghen#'s on the ladder)

That being said, I was wondering about a few things..

What does rubble and trees do? Do they affect attack modifiers and movement speed?

I'm playing a Beorning Paladin now and I think they should get a Wis penalty when shifting into bear form. I see the int goes down.

I'm not one for normal race/class mixes... I played with a longbeard rogue for a while too, picking pockets is fun =)

The whole wilderness idea is very fun, expecially plains levels. I love the wide-open feel! Thing is, I haven't seen a dungeon yet besides 'undercroft' via a trap door.
Is that a real dungeon?
How can I find dungeon entrances? (or have I just not played long enough, highest character was level 11)

Everything seems to stack pre-ID as well as some non-ID'ed items stack with known stuff and gets a free ID. Is that a bug or a feature?

I uncursed a ring of teleportation, then I Identified it for squelching reasons.. the {uncursed} inscription disappeared. Not sure if the item was re-cursed or not.

When in the wilderness I noticed you use < to go to less danger and > to go to greater danger.. I can get used to it, but most of the time I just press them at random since they have the same graphic using graf tiles.

All the early monsters run at full speed which is kinda disappointing, I think the AI has improved pathing over vanilla too and won't get stuck in a corner. These lead to alot of long chases for that last * . I guess I'll have to invest in a bow or something, but this character has 'poor' shooting.

Thats it for tonight =)

[Nick]

Other ideas: how about expanding the world map westwards so that chars can get to the Bay of Balar/Vinyamar or Losgar (or even the Helcaraxe)? There's a risk that no-one would bother going more than once but it'd be a nice scenic diversion...

I'd actually thought of having Arvernien and the Isle of Balar, and maybe starting a race there ... Maiar, perhaps. I don't know if I ever will, but having the sea would be kind of cool.

[Seany C]

I don't see any need for a radical reworking but some tweaks would be intriguing...

I agree that Rangers aren't too difficult once you get started - I'm sure one will win soon.
Druids are a far harder challenge, though - the two main problems for Druids are not enough spell power (all elemental means that a lot of monsters have to be meleed) and not enough HPs - it seemed to me like mine had less HPs than Necros/Rangers, despite having less of a ranged attack.
Also, Druids on the 'difficult' starting points don't get a nice weapon - maybe compensate by giving them boots/gloves of FA or a nice armour?
Races: the main problem is that all the Elven races seem a bit similar (bar Dark Elves) - not sure how to differentiate, though...

Specialities: more would be nice but that's easy to say - I'll have a think about what to add. Maybe rebalancing the existing ones so that everyone doesn't take the usual suspects might be an interesting tweak...

Other ideas: how about expanding the world map westwards so that chars can get to the Bay of Balar/Vinyamar or Losgar (or even the Helcaraxe)? There's a risk that no-one would bother going more than once but it'd be a nice scenic diversion...

[Nick]

Some thoughts about specialties.

It seems more logical that specialty gain should be based on experience gain. How come only 5 uniques guard the secrets to player growth? Monsters should guard treasure or access, or something similar.

Grrr. Another person using logic and reason on me. Damn you all.

I agree with others' statements above that specialties could really break open FAangband's appeal/complexity/interestingness/whateveryoucallit.
This could be done several ways. More specialties is an obvious one. I think having some specialties that you can incrementally improve would be neat.
Skill trees?

Hmm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Why do warriors get 2 out of the starting gate? I've seen this in D&D, and it sort of feels right but I can't explain it, just curious.

Because they did in O Maybe because they need something to balance their lack of magic and bad device skill.

I guess my feelings are that the world feels tangible and is fun to traverse. The next step to feeling immersed in FAangband would be to have characters that felt unique to play because they could be grown in different ways. I know this feature already exists, but could be expanded on with wider variety.

I guess the difficulty with this whole issue is allowing variety while keeping game balance. 0.2.3 is certainly easier than previous versions (not that that's a bad thing), and easier than O I think, so I'm getting into new territory. Probably I'll just make a whole raft of changes for 0.3.0 and then we'll see how it turns out.

p.s. my wife thinks flower patches in the wilderness would be really cute.

I'll see what I can do

[HallucinationMushroom]

Some thoughts about specialties.

It seems more logical that specialty gain should be based on experience gain. How come only 5 uniques guard the secrets to player growth? Monsters should guard treasure or access, or something similar.

I agree with others' statements above that specialties could really break open FAangband's appeal/complexity/interestingness/whateveryoucallit.
This could be done several ways. More specialties is an obvious one. I think having some specialties that you can incrementally improve would be neat.
Skill trees?

Why do warriors get 2 out of the starting gate? I've seen this in D&D, and it sort of feels right but I can't explain it, just curious.

I guess my feelings are that the world feels tangible and is fun to traverse. The next step to feeling immersed in FAangband would be to have characters that felt unique to play because they could be grown in different ways. I know this feature already exists, but could be expanded on with wider variety.

p.s. my wife thinks flower patches in the wilderness would be really cute.

[Nick]

Maybe, but for the sake of variety it would be nice to have some of the less popular races more interesting. In V you are rewarded with quicker level gain for the weaker races, in FA it almost works the other way around as a High Elf, Adan, Druadan and Grey Elf actually start in such a position that you can be up to level 10-12 after just one kill and find some really nice gear just lying around!

*Sigh* I guess you're right. All races need a bit of a reconsider; some of their innate specialties are pretty uninspiring.

I keep meaning to take a decent shot at playing a Dark Elf, but the low hit dice and melee put me off. The stealth is nice, but the non-aggravation seems a little trivial. The aggravating artifacts are mainly useful for warriors and Dark Elfs are not really suited to that discipline. Perhaps stick one up as a comp char and I'll give it a proper go!

They make really good rogues and assassins. I have been killing all my DE rogues, but only because I'm going most of the way to Amon Rudh without killing anything.

[Psi]

This is one of the best specialties for every class, IMHO. E.g. the increased combat bonuses from potions are very useful for melee-users even in the end-game.

That's a very good point <quaffs !oEnlightenment>

Races: They're not all meant to be equal.

Maybe, but for the sake of variety it would be nice to have some of the less popular races more interesting. In V you are rewarded with quicker level gain for the weaker races, in FA it almost works the other way around as a High Elf, Adan, Druadan and Grey Elf actually start in such a position that you can be up to level 10-12 after just one kill and find some really nice gear just lying around!

I keep meaning to take a decent shot at playing a Dark Elf, but the low hit dice and melee put me off. The stealth is nice, but the non-aggravation seems a little trivial. The aggravating artifacts are mainly useful for warriors and Dark Elfs are not really suited to that discipline. Perhaps stick one up as a comp char and I'll give it a proper go!

Another idea is to enable the player to switch specialties on killing the 3rd and 4th guardians.

Now that is interesting. Not sure it makes sense from a realism point of view, but gameplay wise it could change tactics a lot. There are some specialities that make the early game easier but I'd avoid because there are ones I want more for the end game - things like clarity and athletics where the initial boost is great, but you could probably cover it with your equipment later.

[Nick]

Apologies for the long post, but here are some more ideas...

OK, here are some brief answers

Sustains: Yes, I see the point. Along with the planned shakeup of resistance generally (which will require changes to artifacts and egos) I'm planning changes to randarts (particularly including jewelry) and bigger changes to egos; I'll bear the sustain issue in mind for that.

Druids: I usually haven't had much trouble starting one - I usually just kill them in the 20s. I think maybe they're just underplayed rather than underpowered

Specialties: Some good ideas there - I particularly like the idea of extending Trap Setting to other classes. I think the only new one in O since FA forked is Attunement, and I'm not sure how that went - something with devices would be good, though.

Another idea is to enable the player to switch specialties on killing the 3rd and 4th guardians.

Races: They're not all meant to be equal. In particular, Maiar are intended as an easy race, and Longbeards were meant to be kind of half-easy, too - kind of uber-dwarves. Green Elves get an easier start than Grey, and the stealth bonus is supposed to be the hook for Dark Elves. HOLD_LIFE for Hobbits sounds like a good plan. I probably should revisit all their stat and other bonuses, too, as I haven't looked at that for a while.

At the moment I'm doing the much less interesting task of code cleanup and UI improvement

[Bandobras]

Reasonable remarks. I'd add to them the usual advice to look and steal from Vanilla O.

> Enhance Magic

This is one of the best specialties for every class, IMHO. E.g. the increased combat bonuses from potions are very useful for melee-users even in the end-game.

> Mighty Throw

This is only useful for people intending to focus on throwing (like me, usually) and this is not a problem. The problem is the specialty is a bit bland and does not even allow the use of throwing in every situation missiles or spells may be used (still quite limited range). Perhaps steal Trick Throw from Un to make this more interesting? Or steal throw inaccuracy from S, but then give unlimited range?

[Psi]

Apologies for the long post, but here are some more ideas...

- One of the big holes left by the elven rings is sustains. At the moment the only viable way of protecting yourself is via the Shield of the Swan (Anarion). Robes of Permanance and sustain rings (honestly what is the point of those) will have long been swapped for better kit. Possible solutions:
o Cloaks/Shields/Amulets of Permanance
o A randart jewelry theme which grants some/all sustains
o More sustains on existing artifacts
o Could make partial sustains on Athletics & Clarity into full sustains.

- So far Rangers and Druids are the only classes not to have won FA. From experience a Ranger should be able to do it (especially with rapid fire), however Druids seem tough. They are supposed to be able to fight effectively bare-handed - however they are barely better than a necro at combat and they don't get an attack spell until CL4 which mages and necros do at CL1. Potential changes:
o An additional thn bonus when unarmed to make combat more viable (and prevent them from just using weapons).
o Maybe increase thn with the Powerstrike speciality too

- I'd like to be able to customise/specialise my characters further and the obvious way to do this is through the specialities. Here are some thoughts on what we have and what could happen:
o Mana Burn is awesome. No other speciality I've tried compares to it.
o Unlight (for Rogues and Assassins), Rapid Fire, Soul Siphon and Heighten Magic are all brilliant. I would be tempted to add small shooting bonuses to SPEED_GOOD launchers (in the same way but less than SPEED_GREAT) and in that way open up rapid fire to non-bows for rangers and maybe to warriors and rogues too.
o Trap Setting and Martial Arts are fairly unique in offering a new dimension to play. It would be nice to see these open to more classes - particularly martial arts (which could be available to most classes).
o Armsman, Athletics, Clarity, Extra Trap, Fury, Marksmanship, Meditation, Piercing Shot, Power Strike and Regeneration are all good (though see comments on Powerstrike above).
o Channeling sounds appealing but by the time you have cast all of your buffing up spells you have lost a lot of the benefits!
o Armor Proficiency and Evasion are both great concepts but in practice the limits are too limiting for me to waste a speciality slot on.
o Shield Mastery is an interesting one. I think that shield masters would actually have a higher chance of bashing and less of a chance of stumbling - neither of which they get at the moment.
o Beguile sounds interesting, but I'm not sure how effective it is - I rarely use the applicable spells to make use of it and most high level monsters get NO_CONF and NO_SLEEP anyway. Therefore slowing is the one this would be useful for - does anyone have any experience of how effective slowing is with this speciality?
o I've not used Fast Attacking, Holy Light or Power Siphon to be able to comment on their usefulness.
o Armor Mastery, Enhance Magic, Fast Casting, Harmony, Magic Resistance, Mighty Throw and Phasewalking. Of these I have only tried Fast Casting however I'm not convinced there is anything in any of them worthy of taking them over the other specialities and I would be tempted to remove them or upgrade them in some way.
o I'd like to see melee boost and bow boost specialities which increases thn and thb respectively (with level) - probably at the expense of INT & WIS (and maybe a boost to STR?). Would be nice to allow semi-casters and full-casters a better shot at melee or shooting - with a trade off of course. This would also benefit weaker races.
o There could be an item lore speciality that gives fast and heavy pseudo-id and increases magic device skill.
o I'm sure there is plenty of scope for other specialities!

- Some races seem very weak in comparison. Some suggestions:
o Dark elves to get RES_DARK
o Hobbits to get SUST_CON and maybe HOLD_LIFE. There should at least be better ego slings to make their sling bonus worthwhile.
o Why would anyone play a Dwarf over a Longbeard? They get better starting armour but that is it. Dwarves need another bonus (not sure what though) or Longbeards need another penalty.
o Green Elves seem a bit weak next to Grey Elves too.

[Psi]

That's a thought. Or the .ini file.

The WinCE version uses the registry instead of the .ini file - not sure why though (AngbandCE did it so I kept it like that).

OK, I've just had a trawl back through the newsgroup, and someone had a problem with the 0.2.2 binary that I compiled. So it looks like it's something to do with my compilation setup

I still find that hard to believe as your .exe works on both of our devices

[Nick]

The registry settings perhaps?

That's a thought. Or the .ini file.

What we'd need is for someone who could not get 023 to work, to install 022 and then try 023 and see if that fixes it...

Good idea. Any volunteers?

Another thing could be Windows CE versions - but I can't believe we've added any incompatible features between 022 and 023 (I don't think I made any changes at all did I?).

OK, I've just had a trawl back through the newsgroup, and someone had a problem with the 0.2.2 binary that I compiled. So it looks like it's something to do with my compilation setup