New proto-variant: Jackband

[ekolis]

Well, I've been playing around with the V code a bit, and I actually managed to add a "change class" command to my proto-variant inspired by Multiband...

Now I need to figure out how to deal with XP gain across multiple classes! I have 4 classes in "Jackband" (Jack-of-all-trades Angband, which is what I'm calling this variant): Adventurer (no stat modifiers, no skills yet until I figure out what the numbers mean, really fast pseudo-ID, -50% XP to gain a level), Warrior, Mage, and Priest (I removed the "hybrid" classes Rogue, Ranger, and Paladin), and it seems like if I level myself up as an Adventurer, then I get the level across the board (though I might not get the warrior's 9 hit-die), making the game kinda easy! So I'll need to basically store off a copy of the player's experience counter for each class, and when the player changes classes, I'll need to replace his XP and level and the like with whatever is saved off for that particular class... I bet this will break all kinds of savefile code! :P

Once I get that working, I might decide to implement some sort of side benefits... it would be annoying if you switched from level 20 warrior to level 1 mage and forgot completely about how to fight! Even in Dragon Quest IX, which I think could have gone further with its multiclass system, you at least get to keep some of your special abilities you've earned, even if your HP and other stats do drop drastically when changing to a new class!

[Sirridan]

Sounds neat, lemme know when one can playtest :P

Btw, did you use straight V code, or did you build it off AngbandBase?

[Nick]

Btw, did you use straight V code, or did you build it off AngbandBase?

Off V, I hope - Angband Base is not really ready yet.

From the looks of it changes so far will be in the bits of V outside AngbandBase, I think, so it should be easy to retrofit.

[ekolis]

Yeah, I tried AngbandBase first, but I had to pull in so much V code to get anything to compile, I figured it would be easier to start with V in the first place!

Anyway, now I've got the player having several classes at once, each with its own XP and the like... still a few rough spots, but I'll deal with 'em!

1. I tried fiddling with the player_type struct, but that totally screwed up the game (wound up starting on dlvl 15 with all possible status effects, WTF?!) so I decided to move all the class-leveling info to a separate array... of course, now I need to dig into the savefile code to make sure that array actually gets saved when you save the game! No good starting at level zero when you load a savefile!

2. HP and MP are kinda weird; if you switch from a class where you have more max HP to a class where you have fewer, you can wind up with weird stuff like 16/15 HP! I'm thinking I might just go with a system where your max HP and max MP are the MAXIMUM of what you've earned leveling up any class... that would also help deal with the "don't let player get screwed by rolling 1's repeatedly for HP levelups" check which I removed because I didn't want to bother with converting that to deal with multiple classes!

3. I'm not sure how spell learning works... it might be that if you can learn 1 mage spell and 1 priest spell, then you can actually use that to learn 2 mage spells if you so desire! Or maybe the counters are separate, I'm not sure...

4. I should probably start the player with the first mage and priest books, and maybe start him with a blunt weapon (whip?) instead of a shortsword, just so he can switch to mage or priest at the beginning and not have to go buy an appropriate book or weapon! (Especially since you don't seem to start with any gold in the latest V version...)

5. I actually got this message, probably no one's seen it before... "You can't make out your surroundings well enough to search." Haha! I guess I need to give that Adventurer class some skills!

[ekolis]

I created a repo on Bitbucket...

http://bitbucket.org/ekolis/jackband

[AnonymousHero]

2. HP and MP are kinda weird; if you switch from a class where you have more max HP to a class where you have fewer, you can wind up with weird stuff like 16/15 HP! I'm thinking I might just go with a system where your max HP and max MP are the MAXIMUM of what you've earned leveling up any class... that would also help deal with the "don't let player get screwed by rolling 1's repeatedly for HP levelups" check which I removed because I didn't want to bother with converting that to deal with multiple classes!

I may not have any idea what I'm talking about since I've never tried Multiband, but averaging the HP and MP between the player's classes seems like a better choice to me.

[ekolis]

Hmm, that might work... of course, then it would make gaining HP and SP much harder, since you'd have to level up four times to get the full benefit, seeing as there are four classes!

Actually, what I could do is I could limit class changes to the town, where it would then be OK to simply fullheal the player on class change! (Well, except for those *%!$ mercenaries and veterans...) I was originally going to make class change something you do in the home, but I couldn't figure out how to add stuff to the home menu, so I just made it a command usable anywhere that uses no time... and I'm not really sure if I want to keep it that way (and let players be flexible), or limit it to the town/home/whatever...

[Derakon]

The problem I see with limiting it to the town is that it means that the player can't use class changing to react to threats in the dungeon.

Of course, given that priests and mages both have heavy reliance on carrying books in the inventory, it's debatable how useful switching class to one of them would be if you were originally kitted out as a warrior...

I tend to prefer a skills-based approach where you can mix and match different classes together and get all of the benefits of your classes simultaneously. But that would require some SAngband-level reworking of how skills, spells, and abilities are obtained.

[ekolis]

Hmm, I ran into an issue here... Apparently the game crashes with a "too many entries" error if I try to have more than five starting item types in a class's inventory! But I can't see where this limit is set... Where is it set???

edit: never mind, I found it in defines.h :P

[ekolis]

Hmm, I was thinking some more about multiclassing, and I realized it might be kind of silly to have most of the benefits of all classes at once, while being able to switch at any time, and gain XP only toward the "current" class... what is the point of having a "current" class, then, if it only determines where the XP go!

So I'm thinking about other systems for XP allocation...

1. The Crawl system: in Crawl, you can toggle your skills on or off; this has no effect on usage of skills, but it does help you allocate skill points; these are allocated more heavily toward the ones that are toggled on, and less so toward those that are toggled off. So for Jackband, I could let the player toggle each of his classes on or off, with similar weightings of XP allocation between the classes!

2. The usage system: kill a monster with a melee attack and gain warrior XP; kill a monster with a spell and gain mage XP; heal yourself when low on HP and gain priest XP; disarm a trap or unlock a door and gain adventurer XP!

3. The priority system: when you start the game, you choose a "preferred" class, which advances quicker than normal, and a "disliked" class, which advances slower than normal. XP is divided equally among all classes.

Thoughts? Other systems I should consider? I'd like to use the "usage" system I described above, but it might be a bit harder to implement than a simple toggle for each class or a priority system! The priority system also seems interesting; that's sort of what Multiband did, only you got XP toward only one class at a time and had to change classes manually (as I'm doing now in Jackband, but I want to change that).

[getter77]

Number 2 sounds the more interesting of that lot, with 3 a somewhat distant second. I guess you'd need to flesh out exactly what does what though...like Rod use and such.

Otherwise, the only other thing I could think of would be something like a point buy/mix n' match system where you can multiclass to a greater extent as you level up and can spend towards various "standard' class skills and attributes---align the class features via Tiers or some such. So you could perhaps wind up with a character with the best of the best passive attributes but not so much in the way of Spells to cast and the like.

[buzzkill]

Thoughts? Other systems I should consider? I'd like to use the "usage" system I described above, but it might be a bit harder to implement than a simple toggle for each class or a priority system!

This sounds like the way to go. It should build a character suited to ones individual playstyle.

[nullfame]

I sorta like the idea of just having 1 EXP count (you'd have to choose the appropriate "jack" XP penalty).

it might be kind of silly to have most of the benefits of all classes at once, while being able to switch at any time, and gain XP only toward the "current" class... what is the point of having a "current" class, then

An alternative approach is not letting you change class at any given moment. I think you need to be able to change in the dungeon, but maybe it takes X turns to kick in, or you are paralyzed for X turns, or you are classless for X turns in between.

1. The Crawl system... I could let the player toggle each of his classes on or off, with similar weightings of XP allocation between the classes!

2. The usage system: kill a monster with a melee attack and gain warrior XP; kill a monster with a spell and gain mage XP; heal yourself when low on HP and gain priest XP; disarm a trap or unlock a door and gain adventurer XP!.

Both of these strike me as having a sort of metagaming aspect to them: if I'm trying to build up a certain skill (say, magic) but am already adept at another (e.g., combat) wouldn't I weaken my foe and switch classes/tactics just to get the death blow? Maybe that's the point.

[buzzkill]

Both of these strike me as having a sort of metagaming aspect to them: if I'm trying to build up a certain skill (say, magic) but am already adept at another (e.g., combat) wouldn't I weaken my foe and switch classes/tactics just to get the death blow? Maybe that's the point.

If the usage system functions properly, the situation you described would likely be counter productive, certainly unintuitive. A strong combat character got that way because he IS strong in combat. Sure, he could try to artificially inflate his magic skills, but he will likely still be strongest in combat, else he would have developed differently. In short, he'd be hamstringing himself, trading combat skill for magic skill, when his combat skill has always paid the bills.

[nullfame]

If the usage system functions properly... he'd be hamstringing himself, trading combat skill for magic skill, when his combat skill has always paid the bills.

I guess the reason a skills-based variant never appealed to me is that in practice I don't understand how it is different than just rolling a warrior. Being able to switch classes dynamically sounds interesting. A new way to play vanilla classes does not. But, it's not my variant. I guess #3 would strike me as most unique.