Angband Variant without random levels?

[TJA]

Hello,
beginning to have a look at roguelikes again - after years - i notice that Vanilla Angband recreates all levels every time every time we visit a level.
This may be usefull for getting XP and equipment, but i realy, realy dislike it.

So, my question is, if there is a variant - or maybe compile option - that allows for levels to be generated only ONE time and then saved for each future visits with the same character and game.

I know that this is true for Nethack and some variants, but i seem to remember such a behavior in an *band somewhere ...

Any idea?

[Nick]

So, my question is, if there is a variant - or maybe compile option - that allows for levels to be generated only ONE time and then saved for each future visits with the same character and game.

I know that this is true for Nethack and some variants, but i seem to remember such a behavior in an *band somewhere ...

Any idea?

Entroband/Hengband have this to some extent - when you go down stairs and then back up the same stairs the level will be the same. I'm not sure whether taking different up stairs wipes the previous up level or not.

[ajps]

I know that this is true for Nethack and some variants, but i seem to remember such a behavior in an *band somewhere ...

Any idea?

I think the Tk graphical versions of Angband and variant(s) had persistent levels, but I might be confusing them with something else. Personally though, I can't help thinking that if you hate random levels you're playing the wrong game.

[TJA]

I love random levels, but i like a consistent world

I find it quite strange to go down and up a ladder to find the world changed

Levels should be created randomly, of course - but sure not change again and again with ups and downs on a ladder.

This completely removes any "exploring the dungeon" feeling for me ...

I never liked nethack and it´s variants (because of this, i used to play angband earlier), but i always wanted random but saved levels for angband


Thanx for your replies!

[Daven_26d1]

I think the Tk graphical versions of Angband and variant(s) had persistent levels, but I might be confusing them with something else. Personally though, I can't help thinking that if you hate random levels you're playing the wrong game.

I certainly remember that in ZTK, levels were persistent - for the purposes of recalling only - until a save/reload or until the shops refreshed. I think it was meant to give you a chance with quest floors if you didn't have reinforcements set.

One thing to remember in angband is that you don't go up/down stairs - you go up/down a "maze of staircases" - being unable to reach the same place twice is a very large convention of the game. What's the point in Draebor sinking you away from that OOD longsword(4d5) if you can just nip back up the stairs? You should read the description of the dungeon in the online help files for a greater understanding, assuming it's still in there.

Some variants (ToME eg) have a persistent levels option, but I haven't tested their function.

[TJA]

I think it would be enough to search a way to go back upstairs and find everything as before

But if ToME has an option, i will look at that too!

I know about Angband, as i used to play it already - but still, thiese always randomly new levels are just not my taste

Thanx for your reply!


P.S. I am playing already - it´s so addictive ...
Just a small test-character (Half-Troll Warrior)

[Madoka]

Entroband/Hengband have this to some extent - when you go down stairs and then back up the same stairs the level will be the same. I'm not sure whether taking different up stairs wipes the previous up level or not.

I'm playing Entroband 1.7.1 right now. It will remember the level that goes with each stair. I just recalled to level 7, went up to 6, up to 5, down to 6 using different stairs (got a different level 6), and then all the way back to 7 by reversing my path and I got the same level for the particulr set of stairs that I took. I saw the first level 6 again. (I hope that made sense.)

[TJA]

Thanx, this is what i like
Don´t know Entroband but will have a look at it!

[Mars]

Heng/Entro dungeons are semi permanent. The way it works is simple: every dungeon trip, it will remember the levels as you encoiunter them. So if you go down to level 1, then level 2, and back the same stairs up to 1 again you will end up in the same level, the same way you left it but possibly with some additional enemies due to respawning. Taking an alternative way up will send you to a different level 1, but you can still (if you remember the route) go back to level 2 and back up the first stairs to enter the first level 1 again. Returning to the surface or casting an alter reality spell wipes all maps.

A very cool part about this is that if you fall down a trap door, you can sometimes find a way back up to the level you fell down from. This can be very handy if you tripped on a trap in a vault! It can also be a convenience to find a (relatively) safe route back up if you don't have a recall scroll. In all, I love this design

[Daven_26d1]

Although this thinking has something to reccomend it (eg realism ) I personally think it takes something away from angband (eg difficulty ).

Its kind of like playing Nethack, where you can return to floors, make stashes etc, but having the option to re-roll floors you don't like.

[Matthias]

At least in the case of Entro it defentily doesn't make the game easier. The levels get reset once you recall, so dungeon stashing isn't an option.

There is usually not much reason why you would want to return to an already cleared level, while on the other hand it effectivly removes stairscumming.

[Daven_26d1]

At least in the case of Entro it defentily doesn't make the game easier. The levels get reset once you recall, so dungeon stashing isn't an option.

There is usually not much reason why you would want to return to an already cleared level, while on the other hand it effectivly removes stairscumming.

It does deal with stair-scumming to some extent, yes. So does delayed level feeling, not setting autoscummer and not having connected stairs.

I think it *does* make band easier (I haven't played entro, mind - I'm in no way claiming that the variant is easy overall) but if you can use stairs to take a break from fighting, without losing vaults/uniques; if you can stash stuff on a higher floor away from pickup monsters and breathers; if it means that part of your escape route has already been mapped and cleared when your recall scrolls get flamed, then you have advantages not normally available to you.

[Matthias]

The escape route might be mapped out, but it certainly isn't cleared. In the best case there will just be newly regenerated monsters. But in the much more common case those monsters will be added to the tough ones you left alive.

If you want to run away using stairs it is just as bad as disconnected stairs. If the next level is impossible as well, there is no going back.

So yeah it has moments where it helps (especially the first dive where you don't need to worry about recall), and those where you'll curse it. From my playing experience the second ones are far more common.. But then again I even often forget stashed stuff if I hide it on the current level, let alone one level above..

Oh and while vaults and uniques remain, quests don't. Leaving the level means losing the quest.

[Daven_26d1]

The escape route might be mapped out, but it certainly isn't cleared. In the best case there will just be newly regenerated monsters. But in the much more common case those monsters will be added to the tough ones you left alive.

If I killed all the monsters, I have an escape route. If I fled the floor, I'll take a different set of stairs up.

If you want to run away using stairs it is just as bad as disconnected stairs. If the next level is impossible as well, there is no going back.

This I'll concede - if you flee a floor, and run straight into trouble, you can't just re-roll the map. Sort of rock/hard place. I guess I overlooked this as I don't use this style of play anyway, at least not via planning.

In all, yes, some things easier, some harder. The way I play, persistent floors would give me an advantage. For one thing I could level or look for more sources of ID before I cracked a vault or had to choose which items to retain from it. Reading your points, I think this feature does deal quite well with some of the abusablities of stairs in V.

[TJA]

Mars, that sound exactly like my game

Sad thing, this project seems to be abbandoned?!?
Last activities 2004 and 2005 ...
:-(

How about adding such an mode - optionally, of course - to Vanilla?