What do you really think about *identify* in variants?

[PaulBlay]

Identify scrolls tell you it's (+3, +5), but you don't know it's got aggravate until you *Identify* it.

I am currently re-constructing an old Angband variant and although I want to be quite true to the original version in most respects there's little point in bringing back *Identify* if everybody is going to hate it. So please, don't hold back, what do you really think about the old "two tier" identification system?

[Donald Jonker]

I think all forms of identify are tedious and unnecessary (although Un makes a compelling case). So my position on *identify* in particular can be inferred.

I believe it's a fitting piece of fat to cut, with minimal loss to nostalgia.

[Nick]

I got rid of *ID* from FA. However, I am now introducing a new system of curses which are not detectable by regular ID, so I've brought *ID* back. Mind you, you do learn curses by use; *ID* can just guarantee you haven't missed one.

Moral of the story, I guess, is you you need to think what purpose it's serving. Or that I'm fickle.

[Nolendil]

Well, the first time I learnt how *id* worked, I found it was nice to keep some informations secrets and I found pleasure in waiting to discover the powers held by artifacts and ego items.
However, once you know the game better and start to haul dozens of ego items at each trip in the dungeon and only find one *id* scroll in the black market (if you find any), you quickly get tired of it.
So the pleasure provided by *id* lasts for only a very short time compared to the pain it gives later. If sources of *id* where common enough (and affordable) once you start finding lots of things that needs it (maybe around dlvl 25-30?), it might be acceptable.
Nevertheless, I don't miss them at all since they were removed from V.

[Atarlost]

In ToME *ID* is commonly available from the alchemist and is a store service in some towns.

It's still obnoxious.

[andrewdoull]

I think all forms of identify are tedious and unnecessary (although Un makes a compelling case).

Un makes a compelling case for it being tedious and unnecessary?

Andrew

[Donald Jonker]

Un makes a compelling case for it being tedious and unnecessary?

Un makes a compelling case for identify being, on the contrary, interesting and worthwhile.

...I have to say, though, that it's the only game that has ever made me think so.

[buzzkill]

I chose option 3, though I feel egos should be ID'd by (standard) ID.
ID to ID almost anything.
*ID* only for extra info on artifacts and heavy curses.
Entorbands use of *ID*, throughly annoying.
That's my 2 cents (at least until someone comes up with a better idea).

[Atarlost]

There's no point to *ID* for fixed artifacts. It's something that's only important to new players who don't read spoilers. *ID* for randarts is at least not pointless, but the limited availability makes it painful.

[takkaria]

Identify scrolls tell you it's (+3, +5), but you don't know it's got aggravate until you *Identify* it.

I am currently re-constructing an old Angband variant and although I want to be quite true to the original version in most respects there's little point in bringing back *Identify* if everybody is going to hate it. So please, don't hold back, what do you really think about the old "two tier" identification system?

I don't like *ID*, but it seems a bit redundant posting it. Unless you make it useful and not irritating by its absence, keep it come. (I'd like to make ID a lot rarer too and make people test-by-use more, but that's a way off...)

[will_asher]

In DaJAngband:
- On one hand anything that pseudos 'average' automatically IDs (and anything with to-hit/ to-dam/ to-ac bonuses smaller than +3 count as average unless it's cursed) and artifacts automatically ID fully when pseudo triggers.
- On the other hand I've added ego staffs and such things so there might be more things you'll need to identify. Also, I've added a couple more egos that give a random sustain/ ability/ resist, like the rings 'of Eregion' which I stole from another variant (I think it was O).
- To make up for having more things to identify, I made there be a slight (about 1/10) chance that the scroll of ID won't dissapear when it's used and a much smaller chance for a scroll of *ID* to not be used up.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that *ID* is annoying enough to remove vs the excitement of thinking 'cool an elvenkind! what's it's random resist?'

Then again, I definetly don't think standart artifacts should need *ID* and if there isn't many egos that give random stuff then there's no need for *ID*.

[PowerDiver]

Anyway, I'm not convinced that *ID* is annoying enough to remove vs the excitement of thinking 'cool an elvenkind! what's it's random resist?'

Just wait until you find 5 elvenkinds in a checkerboard vault, can only carry one home. Perhaps several hats of lordliness and of the magi. Is it exciting that you have 1 in 5 chance of taking home the one that has the resist or power you could use?

Take the word of someone who's had it happen. It is depressing, not exciting.

[Rizwan]

Well, the first time I learnt how *id* worked, I found it was nice to keep some informations secrets and I found pleasure in waiting to discover the powers held by artifacts and ego items.
However, once you know the game better and start to haul dozens of ego items at each trip in the dungeon and only find one *id* scroll in the black market (if you find any), you quickly get tired of it.
So the pleasure provided by *id* lasts for only a very short time compared to the pain it gives later. If sources of *id* where common enough (and affordable) once you start finding lots of things that needs it (maybe around dlvl 25-30?), it might be acceptable.
Nevertheless, I don't miss them at all since they were removed from V.

My thoughts exactly

[PaulBlay]

Well the people have spoken, 15 of them anyway.

The one thing that might tip the balance the other way is that there are many new artifacts and ego items so it's going to be a new game for everybody in that way for a while.

However it also looks like it would be quite a pain to (re)code so that's a point against it.

I think what I shall do is keep *ID* out now, but use all the interesting points raised at a much later point when deciding on whether to create a new and hopefully less annoying *ID* system after Angband/65 is firmly past the beta release.

I would like to thank everybody for their thoughtful contributions.

[andrewdoull]

Un makes a compelling case for identify being, on the contrary, interesting and worthwhile.

...I have to say, though, that it's the only game that has ever made me think so.

Thanks. I think the biggest win in developing the Unangband system was instant pseudo-id (borrowed in part from Sangband). That hints strongly that something might be worth experimenting with further. From there, the granularity of discovery is probably too detailled - I think Eddie Grove has hit a better balance in terms of instantly identifying something if you discover anything about it through experimentation.

Remember, no one really complains about id of potions, scrolls etc. With those the 'instant pseudo id' is the fact you haven't seen the item type before (and therefore is interesting) and the discovery process is relatively straightforward.

Andrew