Mechanic idea for a variant...monster generator

[Mangojuice]

If I can go back to my pet peeve, the AI for just a moment. Description states "and is also magical....1 time in 4". I'm assuming that means that he will randomly cast a spell 25% of the time in place of a move or melee attack. Also assuming that that XP award is based, at least in part, on the fact that he has so many magical abilities why not make him, and for that matter, all (intelligent) spell casters or (intelligent) monsters with spell-like abilities, more likely to cast spells at a distance, and/or when mana is higher, and less likely as he is nearer to the player, and/or mana is lower. I think that this will make them substantially more effective. I can't think of a situation in which it is advantageous to close before casting. This seems like a relatively easy AI upgrade. Then you can couple it with an ability to flee when they know when their getting their butt kicked, rather than just low on HP. Just look for a specific ratio of % of total HP of damage inflicted / % of total HP of damage received.

Well, that's the crux of it right there: monsters don't have mana, they have a "spell frequency" which imposes a speed limit. Monsters can't cast spells any more often than the given frequency. They don't always have to cast spells when they have the chance, there are some circumstances (like a monster near death, especially an intelligent one) where they don't cast spells even when they have a chance, preferring, presumably, to flee.

If monsters had mana this could be workable. The problem with monsters having mana, though, is that the AI would have to be that much stronger or monsters would squander their mana ineffectively. And the system would have to understand the difference between things like breath weapons (and arrow shooting, which is lumped in with spells) that should be repeatable as often as you want, and things like heal, that maybe should not. It may be doable but it's very ambitious... and I think the end result would be making the game easier for the player rather than harder (because of monsters running out of mana, which they currently can't do).

Also, what you said about fear is basically the way it works now. Monsters get afraid when they take big hits; it's based on the ratio of damage to total hp.

AND.. that random generator is looking pretty good. Once perfected, it could eliminate the need for most 'standard uniques'. You know, the ones you never heard of before you started playing Angband.

Eh. One thing I'm grappling with in my head is that the whole idea of monster memory becomes a lot shakier when you are faced with random uniques. I'm still not sure how they can be used in the game properly. They probably need to be somewhat predictable... if you run into a unique orc, you should have some notion of a power range you expect it to be in; if the variation is too wild, random uniques will become things you should probably avoid at all costs until late in the game.

[Narvius]

Eh. One thing I'm grappling with in my head is that the whole idea of monster memory becomes a lot shakier when you are faced with random uniques. I'm still not sure how they can be used in the game properly. They probably need to be somewhat predictable... if you run into a unique orc, you should have some notion of a power range you expect it to be in; if the variation is too wild, random uniques will become things you should probably avoid at all costs until late in the game.

I disagree. The simplier way is to make Probing discover *everything* about a monster, INCLUDING melee attacks, breaths and spells.
Sure, you'd have to waste a turn before you can do a thing against uniques and it would be another thing you'd have to drag around with you. But I still think it's a better idea.

[buzzkill]

If monsters had mana this could be workable. The problem with monsters having mana, though, is that the AI would have to be that much stronger or monsters would squander their mana ineffectively.

Monsters already cast ineffectively. Breath weapons/gazes and other 'natural' abilities would be separate based solely on a percentage chance and not effect mana. Missile weapons also separate, no mana or separate missile mana/ammo. Spells would be separated into 3 general categories: offensive, defensive, and escape. Order their spells by general effectiveness (highest damage/beneficial effect first). The distance to the player would be calculated (assuming line of sight), and split into 4 ranges: melee, close (20'-30'), medium (30'-50'), and long(60' +). Divide the mana into 4 general ranges: Full (100%), High (75%-100%), Medium (25%-75%) and Low (25% or less). First check for a breath or missile attack, then check for casting. Let's face it, if you have a ranged attack, it's best to use it at distance, esp if it's almost free (breath/missile/full mana).

At long range, offensive casting: full mana (95%), high (50%), medium (25%), low (0%).
At medium range, offensive casting: full mana (90%), high (35%), medium (20%), low (0%).
At medium range, defensive casting: full mana (10%), high (15%), medium (25%), low (0%).
At close range, offensive casting: full mana (85%), high (25%), medium (15%), low (5%).
At close range, defensive casting: full mana (15%), high (25%), medium (35%), low (5%).
Melee offensive casting: full mana (blink), high (20%), medium (10%), low (0%).

It's preliminary, so don't knock the numbers, just the concept. You can simply scale the percentages, or throw the numbers into a chart based on intelligence. As you see, he would almost always cast with full mana, and cast more often at distance. He would cast less as his mana is depleted and he nears the player. I think a system like this would preserve mana (I'm not sure why he'd want to, it seems to me this is the monsters one and only shot at glory), and make casters more effective.

Also, what you said about fear is basically the way it works now. Monsters get afraid when they take big hits; it's based on the ratio of damage to total hp.

If you say so. I just don't see it.
How about this then. When a monster decides to flee, give him a peek at the surrounding dungeon in a radius equal to his detection range, or a percentage of his detection range (in theory, based on his previous existence in this dungeon). Then have him plot the furthest possible getaway (without being trapped/dead ended), in a direction away form the player, or around the player (so he won't get hit again) and follow it. For added effectiveness have him duck into cross corridors and around corners to break line of sight, if it doesn't cost a move (I think monsters may already do this). This plotting may take a some memory resources, but providing 100 of monsters aren't fleeing at once (and they never are) it shouldn't be a problem. Implementing it might be a little tough.

Eh. One thing I'm grappling with in my head is that the whole idea of monster memory becomes a lot shakier when you are faced with random uniques. I'm still not sure how they can be used in the game properly. They probably need to be somewhat predictable... if you run into a unique orc, you should have some notion of a power range you expect it to be in; if the variation is too wild, random uniques will become things you should probably avoid at all costs until late in the game.

As for these generated uniques, the player will just have to handle them like any other monster, you might encounter in a new variant (with the benefit of knowing it's a generated monster, maybe), approach with caution and learn what you can. Unknown, powerful enemies and out of level monsters are what makes the game fun (as long as it's doesn't happen constantly). Maybe keep a generated monster for the entire game, so it may reappear later (if it's not destroyed on it first meeting), rather than just for a single level . When it is destroyed, perhaps you could run it through the generator again, upgrading it again, and have it reappear later, as a resurrected undead, or as Whatist, Father/Mother/Brother of Whosit Monster (and again).

Another thought I just had. When a particular creature kills a player, run him through generator and bring him back as a permanent unique as a reward.

[Narvius]

Aww. Wouldn't that *really* quickly make the unique list explode?
But I like it.

[Mangojuice]

Monsters already cast ineffectively. Breath weapons/gazes and other 'natural' abilities would be separate based solely on a percentage chance and not effect mana. [...]

I just don't see much upside to this in terms of its overall effect on the game.
This reminds me of my change to the random artifact code. In the end, I feel the randarts in Z+ are a little more balanced than they were in Z, but it was a hell of a lot of work for extremely minimal gameplay impact.

Let's just leave it at, I'm not interested in this. One could write an AI this way. Would it be better? Probably not, it would probably just feel dumb in its own unique ways.

[Nick]

Are you guys aware of the 4GAI (where the 4G is 4th generation) in variants like O, S, FA and NPP? This does have monster mana, and also a fairly sophisticated way of monsters choosing spells.

[Narvius]

Since Andrew, who said the same thing, was ignored, I don't think so.
But right, NPP has mana (and arc breaths, yay!), and the monsters are fairly smart.

[buzzkill]

Are you guys aware of the 4GAI (where the 4G is 4th generation) in variants like O, S, FA and NPP? This does have monster mana, and also a fairly sophisticated way of monsters choosing spells.

I'm aware that monsters in FA have mana, was unaware that FAA's AI was any different the Z+ (the only two variants I familiar with). There are some things about Z+ that I like better. Like that monsters sometimes (at least seem) to back away, without fleeing, to try and maintain distance for their missile attacks.

I'm guess I'm really just a programmer at heart. It's too bad I don't know C++, or any really relevant language. I know BASIC inside and out, and at one time wrote fluent Pascal, but I don't remember much of it anymore. I just like developing ideas I think might be useful and/or cluttering up the forum with useless ideas. I think I like the forum almost as much as the game.

I Googled 4GAI the first time it was mentioned in this thread and came up blank. It's kinda funny for I found it so easily the second time time.

[buzzkill]

Aww. Wouldn't that *really* quickly make the unique list explode?
But I like it.

I don't know if the list would explode. Are there an over abundance of player ghosts now???

Obviously not everything would come back. Who wants a super powered mold, or floating eye. I'm talking about things while a little personality, things that walk on two legs and carry a weapon.

[Narvius]

I don't see why rainbow-molds aren't worth being a permanent unique... ^.^

Probably this should be an own category of monsters, called "Champions" or something like that (kinda the monster equivalent of ego stuff... well, not really. But they would be the same to uniques what egos are to artifacts.
Once generated, they stick with the save file until they die - every champion you flee from or that kills you will continue haunting you until kill it, at which point it gets erased from the memory forever.

[Mangojuice]

I disagree. The simplier way is to make Probing discover *everything* about a monster, INCLUDING melee attacks, breaths and spells.
Sure, you'd have to waste a turn before you can do a thing against uniques and it would be another thing you'd have to drag around with you. But I still think it's a better idea.

I was considering that; probing was a cruddy ability that needs dramatic improving if it is to have any game impact. Libraries may also give a way to research random uniques... if you know of them in advance and have the chance to read about them in town.

What I think might be the best thing to do is to give hints about the general power level of a monster by: (1) always making it apparent what monster it is based on, and (2) giving hints about its amount of upgrade in the monster description. So for instance, Lagduf is described as "A captain of a regiment of weaker orcs." This doesn't tell you exactly what his abilities are but it gives you a general idea, especially combined with seeing that he is a Snaga, as opposed to a Hill Orc or Uruk. So "fighter" upgrades can be described as warriors, lieutenants, captains, lords, princes, kings, while "thief" upgrades could be described as bandits, outlaws, master thieves, and such. So seeing a description of a guy as a "king" gives you the general idea that he is more dangerous than usual, but a fighter-type upgrade. Whereas, seeing him described as an "archmage" gives you an entirely different idea.

But making text descriptions may be too hard, so I might make the clues all appear in the name. So it would be "Narroch, the Black ogre captain", "Luintol, the Cloud giant rogue", "Gargamel, the Smurf king", et cetera.

[Big Al]

You could make whole monster families! First you find "Grom, son of Crom, hill orc". Later on, you find "Crom, son of Blum, hill orc" (who has all the powers/abilities of Grom plus some). Later on, you find "Blum, son of Drom, hill orc" (who has all the powers/abilities of Crom plus some). Etc. It give the player an idea of what powers they would each have. (Though honestly it's more of a joke concept than anything to be actually implemented.)

But ego monsters would be interesting. Check out Unangband perhaps - it has some variation in the basic stats of monsters. You can find Ancient/Old/Mature/Giant/Huge/Large/Deadly/Furious/Fast/Master/Greater/Lesser/ Elite/Arch/Veteran/Senior/Hardened/Wily/Superior/Experienced versions of all the regular monsters.

[buzzkill]

But making text descriptions may be too hard, so I might make the clues all appear in the name. So it would be "Narroch, the Black ogre captain", "Luintol, the Cloud giant rogue", "Gargamel, the Smurf king", et cetera.

So if I'm hearing you right, and I think I am, we can expect a SmurfBand variant from MangoJuice in the near future.

Don't try and read the incredibly small, poorly colored text.
That's my attempt humor. I don't care if you don't like it. It was only meant to entertain me.

[warlin]

arent player Ghosts some sort of random uniques?

[Mangojuice]

arent player Ghosts some sort of random uniques?

Yes, sort of. But there aren't player Ghosts in every variant.