Mechanic idea for a variant...monster generator

[rdermyer]

That illustrates the difficulty of this very nicely. It would be quite unfair to have a unique Orc that behaves fundamentally like a Lich and not an Orc. But does that mean the game has to understand the monsters at a deeper level than it does?

You could say something along the lines of "Here are all the characteristics of 'o' and generate Lukbar, the Snaga with enhanced damage, AC, hp, maybe some resistances, a speed bonus, and randomly pull some skills off of the orc ability list. Orcs aren't that good of an example, I guess - not many abilities. Maybe, though, you could have a super special orc, maybe he got [un?]lucky and was resurrected as an ethereal orc and now has the ability to walk through walls.

I think this is a cool idea. There are a lot of uniques in the game as it is, but once you see one two or three times, you know pretty much what they can do and what they resist.

[buzzkill]

How about just taking a garden variety orc (for example), add a couple of points to the stats, increase, perhaps double, his HP, and natural resistances, then give him some items from the DLevel that he is encountered on. You could call him 'A Special Orc'.

Like you, he never sleeps, and since he's been wandering around the dungeon long before you arrived, there's a good chance that he has found some nice, as well as normal items. Maybe something like a Crossbow of Extra Shots, a Two Handed Sword, a Staff of Teleport, Rod of Light, and a Wand of Lightening Balls. Just choose items from the current DLevel floor at random, kick out the cursed items (at least the first time they're chosen), and limit him to a single melee weapon, until he's got a particular number of items (let's say d6+2), as well as the ability to pick up items that he finds. If he has bow/sling, grant him normal ammo if he has none. Of course these items will then be absent from the dungeon, will have been used, or used up, and/or destroyed in battle. What the heck, maybe even let him cast spells if he finds a spellbook. The player will then gain these items upon the enemies death (he probably would have picked them up them up anyway).

The problem I see here, is the AI, I'd like him to 'learn' what is effective and go with it, as well as fleeing earlier, if he has a good means of doing so. This Special Orc would realize that you are also 'special'. He has been searching for you. His purpose in life is to destroy you, just as yours is to destroy Morgoth. He'd go all out, throwing everything he had at you, not dying with a healthy inventory.

This would also create an unknown enemy... depending on the items, he could be fairly normal, or very deadly... approach with caution.

For added fun put a handful of such creatures together on the same DLevel. I guess I'm just an evil DM at heart.

[Narvius]

I think we could recycle the borg for that.

[buzzkill]

I think we could recycle the borg for that.

I was kinda thinking that too. But then I wondered if borg AI could by adopted by monsters, why hasn't it been done already. AI, in general, in angband, in general, seems really weak. Kinda like my sentence structure.

[Mangojuice]

It doesn't make any sense to recycle the Borg AI for monsters, because the Borg AI does a lot of its reasoning based on what gets displayed on the screen... in other words, what is happening to you, as opposed to what is happening to some monster.

I can imagine a smarter AI, but since there are a lot of monsters, you can't have them think especially deeply or the game would slow down to a crawl. This is why the "unrealistic monster AI" is a perennial complaint of roguelikes, and one that is likely to continue being a perennial complaint.

[buzzkill]

I can imagine a smarter AI, but since there are a lot of monsters, you can't have them think especially deeply or the game would slow down to a crawl. This is why the "unrealistic monster AI" is a perennial complaint of roguelikes, and one that is likely to continue being a perennial complaint.

With todays processor speeds, I doubt any well written 'borg AI' would slow, any machine to a crawl (or at all), even if you have 100 of then running at the same time, unless your play on PDA or something (and this is me talking, still using my ancient P4/1700). Even limited 'borg AI' for intelligent creatures would be something.

By 'limited borg AI', I mean that it's limited to the effects their actions have on the player only. It basically can disregard other monsters and any effect it's having on them and vice-verca. Monsters should be able to locate the player legally (line of sight/esp), enter combat logically, and escape or avoid hopeless combat situation. Just about anything would be an improvement. And quite frankly, I could wait a second or two between turns during a combat heavy situation if it means the games is going to be a lot more fun.

Specifically, no borg AI needed for this, why don't monster run away from hopeless situations, such as...
It attacks 3x/round (does typical damage for this creature) and misses.. attacks for 6 damage... attack for 9 damage. (10% of my HP total in 1st round)
I attack and do away with away 50% of his hit points.
All too often he'll stick around for more hoping that, presumably, I'll miss the him the next 9 rounds, and neither heal nor teleport myself in the interim.
It would seem that a better time to flee is when a large percentage of your total HP's evaporate in a single round (33%), regardless of how many are left.

It almost makes me sad when the novice mages who were doing quite well at killing me with the blindness and magic missiles decide that it's time for some hand-to-hand combat.

more to come... at least in Z+ archers try to keep their distance.

[Mangojuice]

The monster AI is actually pretty similar to that; it's just that the borg AI would have to change almost all the way into the monster AI before you could use it. Monsters find the player either by line of sight, or by smell, noticing areas the player has recently been, or by "sound" if you are nearby. Intelligent monsters choose their magic abilities based on what they learn the player resists, and they use defensive abilities appropriately. Monsters that are primarily ranged attackers keep their distance, unless you get close enough that they have no choice. Monsters that come in packs try to draw you out into the open.

It's pretty passable. What monsters don't do is explore on their own looking for you (if they can reach you they will, if not they will wait), they don't use objects, and they don't pick and choose terrain to engage you on. They flee temporarily, but don't truly try to escape. (That's important for game balance... early on, if monsters were too good getting away, the game would be too hard IMO.) They don't cast spells without an enemy around to cast them at, so they don't, for instance, heal themselves off-screen or summon more friends. They don't coordinate with each other much.

Anyway... back to the main subject which is the random uniques. I think I like the idea but it's going to be very tough to implement. I know all about what kinds of abilities we can add, but what's hard to understand is how to balance it. For instance, upgrading a race to be a better warrior is pretty straightforward. But how do you make a dragon a better dragon? How do you make a demon a better demon? How do you make a mage a better mage? Can you combine types and if so how -- like, how would a thieving undead monster look? And when would you want one? But most importantly, is there a common way this can be done so I don't have to lay out random unique properties for each of over 50 races?

[andrewdoull]

I was kinda thinking that too. But then I wondered if borg AI could by adopted by monsters, why hasn't it been done already. AI, in general, in angband, in general, seems really weak. Kinda like my sentence structure.

Have you seen any of the 4GAI implementations? e.g. NPPAngband, OAngband, SAngband etc.

Andrew

[Mangojuice]

So I threw together a mock-up unique generator. So far, it doesn't make spellcasters, but assumes that uniques are advanced warriors or thieves compared to the original. Here are a few samples:

Grodmen, the Small Kobold:
It is common on dungeon level 6 and moves at normal speed. Killing this evil creature is worth 215.00 points for a 1st level character. It has an armor rating of 16 and a life rating of 120. It can open doors and bash down doors. It resists poison. It is fairly observant of intruders, which it may notice from 250 feet. It may carry a good object or treasure. It can hit to attack with damage 1d7, hit to attack with damage 1d7, hit to attack with damage 1d7, and hit to attack with damage 1d7.

Hothrant, the Kobold:
It is common on dungeon level 8 and moves at normal speed. Killing this evil creature is worth 310.00 points for a 1st level character. It has an armor rating of 22 and a life rating of 98. It can open doors and bash down doors. It resists poison. It is ever vigilant for intruders, which it may notice from 300 feet. It may carry a good object. It can hit to attack with damage 1d11 and touch to steal gold.


Hothrant is a "Thief" upgrade on a Kobold. Both of these are +5 upgrades, which is pretty substantial; for comparison, many of the unique orcs that actually exist are comparable to +3 upgrades.

A few more samples:

Galdol, the Bandit:
He is uncommon on dungeon level 19 and moves at normal speed. Killing this creature is worth 1550.00 points for a 1st level character. He has an armor rating of 21 and a life rating of 204. He can open doors, bash down doors, and pick up objects. He resists cold. He is ever vigilant for intruders, which he may notice from 300 feet. He may carry up to 4 good objects. He can hit to attack with damage 2d5, touch to steal gold, touch to steal items, and touch to steal gold.


Narroch, the Black ogre:
It is uncommon on dungeon level 29 and moves quickly. Killing this evil giant is worth 20000.00 points for a 1st level character. It has an armor rating of 23 and a life rating of 272. It can open doors and bash down doors. It resists acid. It takes a while to see intruders, which it may notice from 250 feet. It may carry a good object or treasure. It can hit to atack with damage 2d11, hit to attack with damage 2d10, hit to attack with damage 2d10, and hit to attack with damage 2d11.


Luintol, the Cloud giant:
He is common on dungeon level 35 and moves at normal speed. Klling this evil giant is worth 9800 points for a 1st level character. He may fire arrows. He has an armor rating of 46 and a life rating of 400. He can open doors, bash down doors, and pick up objects. He resists lightning and cold. He is ever vigilant for intruders, which he may notice from 300 feet. He may carry one or two good objects or treasures. He can hit to electrocute with damage 3d11, hit to electrocute with damage 3d12, and touch to steal gold with damage 3d5.

Norel, the Xaren:
It is common on dungeon level 61 and moves quickly. Klling this creature is worth 72000.00 points for a 1st level character. It has an armor rating of 51 and a life rating of 396. It can bash down doors, pass through walls, and destroy objects. It is cold blooded. It is not detected by telepathy. It is hurt by rock remover. It resists acid, lightning, fire, cold, and poison. It cannot be frightened, confused, or slept. It is fairly observant of intruders, which it may notice from 250 feet. It can hit to attack with daamge 3d5, hit to attack with damage 3d5, hit to attack with damage 3d5, and hit to confuse with damage 3d6.

Norel is interesting because of the abilities it managed to gain, over a Xaren, namely resist Acid and Electricity, resist Fear, and its one attack to confuse.

Spellcaster upgrades are the next challenge.

[Antoine]

So I threw together a mock-up unique generator. So far, it doesn't make spellcasters, but assumes that uniques are advanced warriors or thieves compared to the original. Here are a few samples:.

This is good work - I think you should develop it further

A.

[Narvius]

I'm no expert, but the life ratings seem kinda low. I mean, a 61 Xaren should have a little more than only 4x the health of a *SMALL GOBLIN THIEF*.

[Mangojuice]

I'm no expert, but the life ratings seem kinda low. I mean, a 61 Xaren should have a little more than only 4x the health of a *SMALL GOBLIN THIEF*.

LOL. Yeah, Xarens have an oddly low amount of HP to start with: only 28d8 (average 126).

The deal there is that the Xaren would be a LOT better at hitting you, since it's effectively 33rd level, while the thief dude would only be 7th level. Plus, the Xaren resists a lot of stuff. That said, Xarens aren't the toughest thing out there for their level, either. They move through rock and have resists, but that's about it. Compare to a unique Crystal Drake (first sample with the new system for mages/priests):

Taurin, the Crystal drake:
It is uncommon on dungeon level 61 and flies very quickly. Killing this evil dragon is worth 170000.00 points for a 1st level character. It reflects bolt spells. It may breathe shards and is also magical, casting spells which produce acid bolts, produce lightning bolts, produce fire bolts, terrify, blind, confuse, slow, or summon a monster, 1 time in 4. It has an armor rating of 45 and a life rating of 693. It can open doors and bash down doors. It is invisible. It resists lightning, cold and poison. It cannot be stunned, confused, or slept. It takes a while to see intruders, which it may notice from 310 feet. It may carry up to 6 good objects. It can claw to attack with damage 1d4, claw to attack with damage 1d4, and bite to attack with damage 2d5.

[Jude]

Whoa. If my idea gets implemented in Z+, I will be PUMPED.

[rdermyer]

It reflects bolt spells.

That's nasty. How common is this sort of attribute? Does anything do that in vanilla? I've never run in to it before.

[buzzkill]

Taurin, the Crystal drake:
It is uncommon on dungeon level 61 and flies very quickly. Killing this evil dragon is worth 170000.00 points for a 1st level character. It reflects bolt spells. It may breathe shards and is also magical, casting spells which produce acid bolts, produce lightning bolts, produce fire bolts, terrify, blind, confuse, slow, or summon a monster, 1 time in 4. It has an armor rating of 45 and a life rating of 693. It can open doors and bash down doors. It is invisible. It resists lightning, cold and poison. It cannot be stunned, confused, or slept. It takes a while to see intruders, which it may notice from 310 feet. It may carry up to 6 good objects. It can claw to attack with damage 1d4, claw to attack with damage 1d4, and bite to attack with damage 2d5.

If I can go back to my pet peeve, the AI for just a moment. Description states "and is also magical....1 time in 4". I'm assuming that means that he will randomly cast a spell 25% of the time in place of a move or melee attack. Also assuming that that XP award is based, at least in part, on the fact that he has so many magical abilities why not make him, and for that matter, all (intelligent) spell casters or (intelligent) monsters with spell-like abilities, more likely to cast spells at a distance, and/or when mana is higher, and less likely as he is nearer to the player, and/or mana is lower. I think that this will make them substantially more effective. I can't think of a situation in which it is advantageous to close before casting. This seems like a relatively easy AI upgrade. Then you can couple it with an ability to flee when they know when their getting their butt kicked, rather than just low on HP. Just look for a specific ratio of % of total HP of damage inflicted / % of total HP of damage received.

Far from borg AI but, relatively easy to implement, low resource footprint, better, more realistic monsters. Just scale the fleeing % based on their intelligence/cowardice/courage, and the likelihood to cast % based on, hmm, number of spells available,... or just use their current ratio for simplicity of implementation (1 in 4 for this creation). This will vary the way in which different monster types cast and flee, keeping them true to thier race/class.

Well, this was just going to be a quick reply, but then I started building upon it, and I could go on but... it's just off the top of my head, surely there are some holes to be filled, what do you think?

AND.. that random generator is looking pretty good. Once perfected, it could eliminate the need for most 'standard uniques'. You know, the ones you never heard of before you started playing Angband.