Nick--what is the point of the three top-end Dragons?

[Pete Mack]

You need a crazy kit to kill them. For some of them you need double resistances all around, or better yet The One Ring. I suppose a Paladin with IM_Elec and a big stack of !CCW for stunning might take on a Great Sky Wyrm. But other than that, they're all just teleport targets like high end Balrogs--but without the ability to return from forever away.

[mrfy]

I've been able to kill them as a top-tier mage or priest as long as they don't summon too much. To do so, you definitely need a good kit and some luck.

[Nick]

You've got most of it already

I think it's good to have a few big things that are mostly too hard to fight, and I think it's thematically appropriate that they're dragons.

[Egavactip]

You've got most of it already

I think it's good to have a few big things that are mostly too hard to fight, and I think it's thematically appropriate that they're dragons.

A few things? 4.2.x is chock full of things that are mostly too hard to fight, or that have a ridiculous risk/reward effort (including most maia, greater balrogs, etc., etc.). Given the richness of treasure/goodies in the middle levels in 4.2.x, it is just one more reason to get as much gear and consumables as possible earlier on and keep one's whole presence on the deep levels to the absolute minimum needed to fill in gaps or get those last few consumables. This is much different than 4.1.x, where it was often to a player's advantage to dive deep and spend a lot of time on the deeper levels.

[Pete Mack]

I am not sure. The main difference is Balrogs turning the dungeon into Swiss cheese. But a few more monsters I don't want to fight? I might need to be a little more careful with TO charges, but the basic equation stays the same.

In NPP the very nastiest normal monsters get DROP_GREAT, which changes the equation a little. But the Dragon pits full of Great Wyrms of Time and inertia? You avoid those like the plague.

[Nick]

A few things? 4.2.x is chock full of things that are mostly too hard to fight, or that have a ridiculous risk/reward effort (including most maia, greater balrogs, etc., etc.). Given the richness of treasure/goodies in the middle levels in 4.2.x, it is just one more reason to get as much gear and consumables as possible earlier on and keep one's whole presence on the deep levels to the absolute minimum needed to fill in gaps or get those last few consumables. This is much different than 4.1.x, where it was often to a player's advantage to dive deep and spend a lot of time on the deeper levels.

I think on the whole I'm comfortable with this. It seems reasonable to me that the dungeon should get more dangerous the deeper you get. Of course it's possible that the middle levels are now too lucrative.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I....Of course it's possible that the middle levels are now too lucrative.

And you can see the evil maintainer's wheels begin to turn as he hatches his plan...

[PowerWyrm]

Don't complain... PWMAngband has "ancient" wyrms which are like regular wyrms but have more hps, +20 speed, and summon high dragons exclusively.

[Egavactip]

I think on the whole I'm comfortable with this. It seems reasonable to me that the dungeon should get more dangerous the deeper you get. Of course it's possible that the middle levels are now too lucrative.

The way it was before, the game rewarded someone willing to take risks by diving deep and spending more time in the deep levels. The way it is now, the game punishes someone who tries to do that by making it more risky still at no increase in reward.

[Pete Mack]

Those dragons *don't* increase the risk of diving. You just teleport them away the same way you do any other monster you can't kill (and that wakes up.) It's Ancient Drahons that increase the risk, st least early on. Later it's the horrible Greater Balrogs.

[Nick]

The way it was before, the game rewarded someone willing to take risks by diving deep and spending more time in the deep levels. The way it is now, the game punishes someone who tries to do that by making it more risky still at no increase in reward.

I would argue the game rewarded diving deep by giving better treasure at no (or little) extra risk - and the new balance attempts to correct that.

[Angdrim]

Maybe the solution is to nix TO. Make players fight them. (Or sneak past them if they get lucky.)

[Pete Mack]

Then players would start carrying teleport. Or better, _Destruction. Of course I already do.
That said, I don't think Nick wants to make the game active unfun to play. And forcing players to fight just isn't.

[archolewa]

Maybe the solution is to nix TO. Make players fight them. (Or sneak past them if they get lucky.)

Frogcomposband has something like this, with lots of endgame enemies resistent to teleportation and some downright immune, and it (IMO) turns the endgame into an unfun slog. So yeah, I think nixing TO would do more harm than good.

To say nothing of removing some of Angbands unique charm, which is how important conflict avoidance and control is.

[Selkie]

To say nothing of removing some of Angbands unique charm, which is how important conflict avoidance and control is.

I think it's one of those important stages in every Angband players' careers, this light bulb moment when you realise you don't need to kill every monster in the dungeon.