Movement Speed?

[Nick]

So, how is that not Speed +10, then?

The main thing is it only applies to movement, where Speed +10 applies to all actions.

[NCountr]

These vax shots aren't worth a darn.

Bile demon is going to be breathing poison for 800, so single resisted would be 266 and double-resisted 88. The relevant side-effect code is

		if (randint0(context->dam) > 200) {
			msg("The stench sickens you.");
			effect_simple(EF_DRAIN_STAT, source_none(), "0", STAT_CON, 0, 0, 0,
						  0, &context->obvious);
		}

As far as I can see this means context->dam must be > 200, which makes it look like damage adjustment is not working correctly. It shouldn't be a cap not being applied issue, as uncapped the unresisted damage at full HP would be 808. I don't suppose you noticed how much damage the breath was doing?

My character takes as little as 13 damage from poison and I'm still getting the Covid.

[NCountr]

As far as I can tell..

I haven't gotten very far in my research, but it seems like context->dam is not reflecting ANY resists.

E.g., when I get hit with a Cold attack by anything powerful, I automatically take inventory damage. I.e.,

inven_damage(player, PROJ_COLD, MIN(context->dam * 5, 300));

is always ringing true, regardless of resists.

Tomorrow, I'll spend some more time and have it print out what it thinks the damage value of context->dam actually is. I'm betting it's unfiltered, raw damage amounts. I don't think it is even checking for Resists, just Immunities.

[backwardsEric]

NCountr, which version are you running? There was a change in 4.2.2 so that the side effects looked at the damage reduced by resistances; in 4.2.1 the side effects used the unadjusted damage. In 4.2.0 there was an indexing error that could mean a resistance was not correctly applied; that was fixed in 4.2.1.

[wobbly]

I am pretty sure all of these have been in the game since 2.4 (Frog-Knows). I wonder if any of the old Warwick people who might lurk on this forum could confirm?

As for the stat-drain with elemental breaths, I remember that being a thing around version 2.5.x or 2.6.x when Charles Swiger was briefly the maintainer. I think that was removed by Ben for 2.7.x. In any case, it's so rare that it is almost inconsequential. By the time you encounter such attacks you will have plenty of options for restoring stats.

All the old versions from frog-knows on are still on Rephial, along with release notes. The elemental stat drain happened in 2.6.2 for instance. Morgoth didn't gain breathe time till 4.2.3
I'm on my phone so I can't download and check the monster list for frog knows, but they were centainly a thing in 2.9.3 and came in bigger pack sizes. Aparently dholes almost became a thing in one of the early versions. They're around in the henglikes if anyone feels like correcting the missed opportunity.

[NCountr]

NCountr, which version are you running? There was a change in 4.2.2 so that the side effects looked at the damage reduced by resistances; in 4.2.1 the side effects used the unadjusted damage. In 4.2.0 there was an indexing error that could mean a resistance was not correctly applied; that was fixed in 4.2.1.

4.2.1 -- that would explain a lot. But, I'm looking at the 4.2.2 source. So, I'd have to see where that structure's data gets populated. I assume that's in effects.c somewhere.

[Julian]

I am pretty sure all of these have been in the game since 2.4 (Frog-Knows). I wonder if any of the old Warwick people who might lurk on this forum could confirm?

I’m not sure there’s been a damage type added since frog-knows. (I checked the source, and IIRC all the ones being complained about have literally always been in the game.)

Double resists have, IIRC, existed since Moria. Certainly since frog-knows. (It’s entirely possible that a temporary+permanent resist in Moria is fully redundant; I can’t be bothered to go digging to check.)

As for the stat-drain with elemental breaths, I remember that being a thing around version 2.5.x or 2.6.x when Charles Swiger was briefly the maintainer. I think that was removed by Ben for 2.7.x. In any case, it's so rare that it is almost inconsequential. By the time you encounter such attacks you will have plenty of options for restoring stats.

That one I don’t remember until modern versions, but there’s no guarantee I ever played anything in the 2.5-2.6 range.

[Ed_47569]

I’m not sure there’s been a damage type added since frog-knows. (I checked the source, and IIRC all the ones being complained about have literally always been in the game.)

Double resists have, IIRC, existed since Moria. Certainly since frog-knows. (It’s entirely possible that a temporary+permanent resist in Moria is fully redundant; I can’t be bothered to go digging to check.)

That one I don’t remember until modern versions, but there’s no guarantee I ever played anything in the 2.5-2.6 range.

Thanks for the confirmation and also the info about Moria - the main exception there being poison resistance. That wasn't available in either permanent or temporary form. Therefore the AMHD was an unavoidable instakill if it breathed poison as characters didn't get much over 400hp with stats capped at 18/100. Now THAT would be something to complain about if it was in modern Angband!

[Nick]

4.2.1 -- that would explain a lot. But, I'm looking at the 4.2.2 source. So, I'd have to see where that structure's data gets populated. I assume that's in effects.c somewhere.

It's all happening in project-player.c - adjust_dam() for the resists, project_player_handler_COLD() (and so on) for the individual element effects, and those are called in project_p() near the end of the file.

[NCountr]

The main thing is it only applies to movement, where Speed +10 applies to all actions.

But this is why it is so convoluted now. I think just about everyone can comprehend +20 speed and how to employ that into game strategy.

Now, you have Movement Speed +2, or whatever, and I sit there hitting the '5' key repeatedly waiting for a mob to move... like 6 times because I have a character already moving 2x as fast as the mob, but then it's compounded with the Movement speed bonus and the mobs just SIT there, except when I'm attacking. All the sudden they're moving every-other action my character takes.

That's rather obscene, don't you think? Maybe not because you put it in there, but it's not a great addition to the game, all-things-considered.

[Pete Mack]

Use Rest. And make a macro (like 's') that explicitly rests 10 turns or so while the monster comes into sight. But mostly, huge movement speed is only possible with randarts, and is utterly lethal with +shots. Find a modest sized vault to run around, and Morgoth will never get a single spell off.

[NCountr]

Thanks for the confirmation and also the info about Moria - the main exception there being poison resistance. That wasn't available in either permanent or temporary form. Therefore the AMHD was an unavoidable instakill if it breathed poison as characters didn't get much over 400hp with stats capped at 18/100. Now THAT would be something to complain about if it was in modern Angband!

Since about 19-Always, Townies used to drop stuff. We also used to haggle over prices with the shop owners. And, yes, the Ancient Multi-hued D used to be something to be feared and revered... which is why we had wands of Wall Building. Poison breath attacks were nightmares and players had to be crafty about bouncing attacks off walls to damage such mobs before they had Line of Sight on the character. Well, we grew out of that and drops from Townies dissipated as well.

I don't know why or what's wrong with players who want to spend inordinate amounts of time with townies and their meager drops, but somewhere, someone decided they didn't want players hanging around town. Now we have to set a birth option just to be allowed to sell stuff to the shop keepers.

My original gripe is about the Game Designer(s) that have wanted to ratchet up Powerful Base Elemental attacks in another attempt to infuse hardship for the player. Yes, Stat Damage has been in the game in versions prior. But, my counter, so has a lot of other stuff that has been 'ruled out': like Townie drops. You can't go cherry-picking your historical references to rebut my charges. They have no value, like a lot of Level 0-1 potions. We used to get shopkeepers to buy and ID them on the cheap---that was a useful strategy back in the day.

Oh... but, but, but... . Yeah, right. Give me back shards of pottery and we'll talk.

[NCountr]

Use Rest. And make a macro (like 's') that explicitly rests 10 turns or so while the monster comes into sight.

Too many keystrokes needed here. And macros, I've never been a fan of. Call me old-fashioned .. fine.

But mostly, huge movement speed is only possible with randarts, and is utterly lethal with +shots. Find a modest sized vault to run around, and Morgoth will never get a single spell off.

I can see that now. Not sure how that would even be a challenge to kill off the final Uniques with such an advantage.

[Pete Mack]

Here you go:
keymap: s
string: R10[Enter]$
Here [Enter] is the result of the enter key.
And not a macro, so no weird side effects. It's only certain games that still need them, like Tome (to toggle stance) and Sil (to toggle fire arrows)

[Ancient Yeek]

Morgoth breathes time now? Oh crap lol looking forward to that.

I've had a few stat drops from breath attacks really doesn't bother me. I'm used to patching that stuff up with Mushrooms or whatever else I can find. My current character has 2 rods of restoration at the moment. If it was permanent stat loss I'd probably whine about it.

About shops I dunno why you guys have selling off by default. I love selling stuff. I miss ripping off the shop keepers with 20 unidentified rings of escaping as well that was hilarious if a little dumb haha.

Thanks for explaining speed and movement speed Nick that seemed quite straight forward - it got through my tiny brain anyway. I have two questions about speed I'd love to know the answer though to.

If you have extra energy say 120 when you move. Will the movement take 100 or do you lose any bonus energy after 100?

My next question is what is the maximum speed that will have an effect? I want at some point to create a max speed character just for the lols. I'm thinking maybe a druid as I think they have speed spell at the moment? Would +90 be max speed? So 10 +90=100 every turn. I'm assuming movement speed wouldn't make any difference at that point as you'd always fill the 100 limit.

Would need Cubragol Ringil, Feanor and rings of speed.