Angband vs Moria

[Voovus]

In a fairly recent post Nick said the magic words "NPPMoria". Classical Moria is almost unplayable after Angband, thanks to the vast UI improvements. NPPMoria is. I dug it out and played through with most of the classes. It was fun. I was afraid it wouldn't be, but it was.

So here is a list of things I found better in Angband (marked with +s) than in Moria (marked with -s). Make what you will of it.


+++++ User interface - customisable shortcut keys, squelch.
+++ No selling option - selling adds atmosphere for the first few games, but then becomes a pointless chore. Having the option to switch it off is ideal. I wish I had a couple more such options...
+++ Artifacts and equipment variety - these add variety to equipment choices and add significant replay value; in Moria, all my characters wore pretty much the same equipment.
++ Basic gear in shops - availability of Cure light wounds, Word of Recall, Phase door, etc means it's not necessary to go to 50' and rest for 5000 turns to restock shops.
++ Stat gain - this has a better balance: I never harvest oozes in Angband for potions, but did every time in NPPMoria.
+ Id - rune id is better than classical id; but, as for selling, after a few games I prefer to switch on the "known runes/flavours" option.
+ Monster Uniques - they add variety to the game, though they would probably be more fun if they were much more rare and more "unique", that is genuinely different from each other and from other monsters.
+ Asymmetric LoS - creates interesting tactical options, though overpowered as it stands (maybe due to abundance of Stone-to-Mud).
+ Bows - shooting is much more viable in Angband.
+ Item drops - improvement on Moria, where a lot of important gear ends up being bought rather than found in the dungeon.

- Vaults - yes, finding a vault is always exciting in Angband, but my impression is that is seriously messes with the game balance and might be a negative overall.
- Treasure veins (Moria) - finding and mining large treasure veins is quite fun in Moria.
- The Balrog (Moria) - the Balrog is a nutcase in Moria, but you pretty much have to go down to his depths in order to find a ring of speed (essential); this results in a change of playstyle and a healthy injection of excitement. (And fear... "They are coming. We cannot get out.")
- Ego weapons - useless in Angband, critical in Moria; Angband's artifact weapons make all the FT, FB, SU, SA, SD, HA, DF stuff pretty much irrelevant, which is a shame.
- Fractional stats - Moria has none of the 3.3 blows/turn nonsense, and feels much more pleasant as a result.
- Adventure feeling - I found that Moria had more of an adventure feeling to it than Angband; not sure why precisely.
- Resistances clutter - fire, acid, cold, lightning and poison is plenty.
- Damage balance - no tediously long fights in Moria.
-- Monster packs and high monster density - did not miss them at all in Moria; gameplay feels smoother and faster with fewer monsters and no packs.
-- Speed - Moria basically doesn't have a permanent speed stat, and that works great (rings of speed are only relevant to about 5% of the game, and in effect play a different role).
-- Teleport Other - Moria has it, but I did not need to use it in any of the playthroughs , and that felt great; not TO's fault, but probably that of other issues.
--- One shot deaths - far too may in Angband, and annoying for such a long game; Moria only has two notorious D's (who both tend to be asleep) and the Balrog to watch out for.
--- Monsters not worth fighting - none, or next to none in Moria, and I didn't miss them. At all.

[Estie]

It has always been my dream to play 3.0.9 with modern UI improvements, rune-id and the new randart algorithm (3.0.9 randarts are stupid). Moria, I only played it a little very long ago and dont remember much, but by extrapolation I can see me agreeing with most of your +/-es.

In particular monster density: everything boring and phasing towards you does make the game harder, but it also removes a strategic layer and reduces the game to pure tactics. It doesnt feel like I enter a new dungeon level as much as a big, oddly shaped room.

Adventure feeling is a weird one; I think I know what you mean, and my best guess is that it might have to do with streamlining of trash items, charisma stat and such. It might also be nostalgia.

[archolewa]

Personally, I think it might not be a bad idea to remove some of the early-game artifact weapons, and make ego weapons show up sooner. Then, your (expected) weapon progression could be something like:

1. Mundane starting weapon.
2. A weapon with a few plusses
3. A slay weapon.
4. An ego weapon or two, depending on what you find.
5. Artifact weapon.

Delaying your first artifact weapon would make it feel much more special (especially when you get lucky and find one early), be less likely to trivialize the early levels (Narthanc anyone?), and would make you much more likely to see some use out of your ego weapon.

Maybe, tweak the game so that you aren't expected to get your first artifact weapon until like floor 40 or something?

I feel like Frog might do something like this, or if it doesn't, it's how things usually shake out for me (though I often play Polearmmaster, so I need not just an artifact weapon, but an artifact polearm).

[Ingwe Ingweron]

As if all artifacts are equal, or some ego weapons aren't better than many artifacts? The distribution isn't, and I would argue shouldn't, be so arbitrary.

[Sky]

how dare you say old randart algorithms were stupid; how else will i find boots of +7 Spd, +7 CON, +7 DEX, +7 STR for my warriors.

[Estie]

how dare you say old randart algorithms were stupid; how else will i find boots of +7 Spd, +7 CON, +7 DEX, +7 STR for my warriors.

Thats not the stupid part, its the "aggravates" you forgot to mention.

[archolewa]

As if all artifacts are equal, or some ego weapons aren't better than many artifacts? The distribution isn't, and I would argue shouldn't, be so arbitrary.

The fact that people hardly ever use ego weapons seems to support the idea that artifact weapons render ego weapons mostly superfluous. The only time Ive ever used an ego weapon is at the very end if I find a Mace of Disruption with a good ego.

The gondolin ego is the most egregious, because by the time it starts showing up, orcs and trolls are no longer a threat.

I also dont understand your concern with "arbitrary." Everything in this game has an "arbitrary" minimum depth. The game is already built around an "arbtirary" character progression (first levels are primarily how you get more powerful, then stat potions, then gear). Sometimes the RNG mixes it up a little, but this is still the general rhythm.

Making egos show up sooner, and artifacts show up later hardly makes the game any more or less arbitrary than it already is. It renders ego weapons less superfluous, and would make your first artifact weapon even more exciting than it already is.

[Pete Mack]

I What is too early? 1000'? 1500'? In my current game I replaced a cheesy ego Slay dagger with Forasgil(!) at 800', and felt it was astonishingly lucky.

[Sideways]

Maybe, tweak the game so that you aren't expected to get your first artifact weapon until like floor 40 or something?

I feel like Frog might do something like this, or if it doesn't, it's how things usually shake out for me (though I often play Polearmmaster, so I need not just an artifact weapon, but an artifact polearm).

That sounds more like V 2.x, where (most) artifacts were neither as strong as now nor as common in the early game, and lucky finds really felt lucky and game-changing.

In Frog you typically do get artifacts early, those artifacts just don't necessarily outclass the egos. There's more parity between different options (and a frequent need to make compromises and find equipment that fits with other equipment). Almost all V standarts got massively buffed in early 3.x, making egos less competitive - despite egos also getting massively buffed... The new blow meta also shook things up; in 2.x an item could be good just because it was the only one you got more than 1 blow with.

That said, I wouldn't call any ego egregiously superfluous if it can generate with FA, SI and Telepathy.

[Pete Mack]

That said, I wouldn't call any ego egregiously superfluous if it can generate with FA, SI and Telepathy.

Even without the ESP, that weapon can be one of the best in the game for a mage or priest who wants to melee. Massive damage with 4 blows, against Dragons, Demons AND undead. Sure you won't use it against the bosses, but so what? I successfully meleed a horned reaper with it and used no !Heal. Playing a mage.

[Estie]

Even without the ESP, that weapon can be one of the best in the game for a mage or priest who wants to melee. Massive damage with 4 blows, against Dragons, Demons AND undead. Sure you won't use it against the bosses, but so what? I successfully meleed a horned reaper with it and used no !Heal. Playing a mage.

Undead only if you are using a MoD and if you use that you are in the endgame. In the endgame, the ego isnt out of place; its in the midgame, around dlvl 60, FA and SI are low value as are low slays. ESP is always great if it spawns, but before great weapons show up, of Gondolin is a stat stick at best.

[Sphara]

Moria was a rudimentary game by today's standards, but boy was it fun back in the days. The first games I did not even know what word of recall does. I just dived and died everytime.

I obviously never reached the Balrog, never even got close. The game was just something different in the dawn of 90's. I believe my only deep character was killed by an Iridescent Beetle. Later I heard there was a term in roguelikes called 'chain paralysis'

Finding a Westernesse weapon for the first time was something awesome. Back then I mostly had only played old NetHack. You know, the version which had The Three Stooges and instadeath hell without fire resistance. I had absolutely no idea what Westernesse meant other than the word 'west' in it. Screw the semantics, it kicked ass.

Without Moria, I CERTAINLY would not be writing this wall of memories.

[archolewa]

That sounds more like V 2.x, where (most) artifacts were neither as strong as now nor as common in the early game, and lucky finds really felt lucky and game-changing.

Prolly. I only started playing with V 4.x, so I don't have any historical context. I don't have a problem with things as they are, it just seemed like a relatively easy way to make egos more valuable.

In Frog you typically do get artifacts early, those artifacts just don't necessarily outclass the egos. There's more parity between different options (and a frequent need to make compromises and find equipment that fits with other equipment).

This is probably more accurate. I just generally remember that I'm often using an ego weapon past orc caves. I'm probably just forgetting all the artifacts I find, look at, say "meh" and leave on the ground. Don't often get an artifact weapon that's worth using until Camelot. Well, random artifacts. I will make use of Dr. Jones' whip early on, unless I get lucky with weapon drops.

That said, I wouldn't call any ego egregiously superfluous if it can generate with FA, SI and Telepathy.

Which is why I said "mostly."

I also tend to play melee brutes, so my melee weapon is my primary source of damage. I will definitely agree that egos are more valuable as stat sticks early (and often late!) than many artifacts for low-melee classes.

[Adam]

+ Asymmetric LoS - creates interesting tactical options, though overpowered as it stands (maybe due to abundance of Stone-to-Mud).

To me it's one of the biggest mistakes of the game. It may be interesting but as you say too easy to abuse. Even without stm and runes of protection.

The fact that people hardly ever use ego weapons seems to support the idea that artifact weapons render ego weapons mostly superfluous. The only time Ive ever used an ego weapon is at the very end if I find a Mace of Disruption with a good ego.

Early defender with good stealth bonus is very good for mages (and probably also for some other classes). Any ego that gives FA or SI can be useful as well. I had game where my only source of SI was a cursed cloak even below DL 50. And in 4.1.3 i rarely had SI in dread depth which was a pain. But I agree that egos could be more useful.

[Pete Mack]

For melee characters, superb ego weapons are also possible. But they, too, are found late in the game. Early on, it is almost impossible to beat Forasgil, which is very common. Even the current 1d4 *thancs have big damage bonuses for their level, and the 2d4 ones were ridiculous after their to_d went from +6 to +12. The issue isn't the weakness of egos per se; it is the fact that there are a few dominant early artifacts of which one is found almost every game.