Angband vs Moria

[lea2501]

In my personal opinion i agree mostly with all your first post, but particularly with

- Adventure feeling - I found that Moria had more of an adventure feeling to it than Angband; not sure why precisely.

Because one of the main reasons i always come back to playing Umoria, is because of that, and also about the feeling of simplicity of the overall game, which sometimes i love after some time playing Angband or Frogcomposband... Umoria is, in my opinion, WAY HARDER to progress, and having fewer QoL features and kind of less information about your items and monsters, I think that and also the 'no colors' ascii helps with the darker or adventure atmosphere of the game compared to Angband and Frog, playing Umoria I feel that even the simplest monsters can kill me because i dont even know how much life they still have after every blow, also the gold pickups are waaaay less frequent, in some games i didn't have any gold left for purchasing anything after a few levels in Umoria, but in Angband gold was never a problem.

I killed the 'Balrog of Moria' two or three times in Angband, but never went below DLVL 10 in Umoria i think

[whartung]

We played Moria back in the mid-80s when we somehow stumbled across it on a DECUS tape.

Our baby VAX 11/730 could not compile the program, at least I don't believe we ever let it finish trying.

But in the end, we played it on a MicroVAX in one of the back rooms at the office.

My distinct memory of it was tip toeing down a corridor. I recall knowing there was a dragon in a room down there.

Anyway, one step I was fine, the next a dead cinder as he breathed on me, even though I didn't have LOS on him (back then we could only target the 8 directions of the keypad). So, he did the LOS trick on me, and nuked me in an instant.

I don't think I played much after that.

[Pete Mack]

For melee characters, superb ego weapons are also possible. But they, too, are found late in the game. Early on, it is almost impossible to beat Forasgil, which is very common. Even the current 1d4 *thancs have big damage bonuses for their level, and the 2d4 ones were ridiculous after their to_d went from +6 to +12. The issue isn't the weakness of egos per se; it is the fact that there are a few dominant early artifacts of which one is found almost every game.

[Adam]

+ Asymmetric LoS - creates interesting tactical options, though overpowered as it stands (maybe due to abundance of Stone-to-Mud).

To me it's one of the biggest mistakes of the game. It may be interesting but as you say too easy to abuse. Even without stm and runes of protection.

The fact that people hardly ever use ego weapons seems to support the idea that artifact weapons render ego weapons mostly superfluous. The only time Ive ever used an ego weapon is at the very end if I find a Mace of Disruption with a good ego.

Early defender with good stealth bonus is very good for mages (and probably also for some other classes). Any ego that gives FA or SI can be useful as well. I had game where my only source of SI was a cursed cloak even below DL 50. And in 4.1.3 i rarely had SI in dread depth which was a pain. But I agree that egos could be more useful.

[archolewa]

That sounds more like V 2.x, where (most) artifacts were neither as strong as now nor as common in the early game, and lucky finds really felt lucky and game-changing.

Prolly. I only started playing with V 4.x, so I don't have any historical context. I don't have a problem with things as they are, it just seemed like a relatively easy way to make egos more valuable.

In Frog you typically do get artifacts early, those artifacts just don't necessarily outclass the egos. There's more parity between different options (and a frequent need to make compromises and find equipment that fits with other equipment).

This is probably more accurate. I just generally remember that I'm often using an ego weapon past orc caves. I'm probably just forgetting all the artifacts I find, look at, say "meh" and leave on the ground. Don't often get an artifact weapon that's worth using until Camelot. Well, random artifacts. I will make use of Dr. Jones' whip early on, unless I get lucky with weapon drops.

That said, I wouldn't call any ego egregiously superfluous if it can generate with FA, SI and Telepathy.

Which is why I said "mostly."

I also tend to play melee brutes, so my melee weapon is my primary source of damage. I will definitely agree that egos are more valuable as stat sticks early (and often late!) than many artifacts for low-melee classes.

[Sphara]

Moria was a rudimentary game by today's standards, but boy was it fun back in the days. The first games I did not even know what word of recall does. I just dived and died everytime.

I obviously never reached the Balrog, never even got close. The game was just something different in the dawn of 90's. I believe my only deep character was killed by an Iridescent Beetle. Later I heard there was a term in roguelikes called 'chain paralysis'

Finding a Westernesse weapon for the first time was something awesome. Back then I mostly had only played old NetHack. You know, the version which had The Three Stooges and instadeath hell without fire resistance. I had absolutely no idea what Westernesse meant other than the word 'west' in it. Screw the semantics, it kicked ass.

Without Moria, I CERTAINLY would not be writing this wall of memories.

[Estie]

Even without the ESP, that weapon can be one of the best in the game for a mage or priest who wants to melee. Massive damage with 4 blows, against Dragons, Demons AND undead. Sure you won't use it against the bosses, but so what? I successfully meleed a horned reaper with it and used no !Heal. Playing a mage.

Undead only if you are using a MoD and if you use that you are in the endgame. In the endgame, the ego isnt out of place; its in the midgame, around dlvl 60, FA and SI are low value as are low slays. ESP is always great if it spawns, but before great weapons show up, of Gondolin is a stat stick at best.

[Pete Mack]

That said, I wouldn't call any ego egregiously superfluous if it can generate with FA, SI and Telepathy.

Even without the ESP, that weapon can be one of the best in the game for a mage or priest who wants to melee. Massive damage with 4 blows, against Dragons, Demons AND undead. Sure you won't use it against the bosses, but so what? I successfully meleed a horned reaper with it and used no !Heal. Playing a mage.

[Sideways]

Maybe, tweak the game so that you aren't expected to get your first artifact weapon until like floor 40 or something?

I feel like Frog might do something like this, or if it doesn't, it's how things usually shake out for me (though I often play Polearmmaster, so I need not just an artifact weapon, but an artifact polearm).

That sounds more like V 2.x, where (most) artifacts were neither as strong as now nor as common in the early game, and lucky finds really felt lucky and game-changing.

In Frog you typically do get artifacts early, those artifacts just don't necessarily outclass the egos. There's more parity between different options (and a frequent need to make compromises and find equipment that fits with other equipment). Almost all V standarts got massively buffed in early 3.x, making egos less competitive - despite egos also getting massively buffed... The new blow meta also shook things up; in 2.x an item could be good just because it was the only one you got more than 1 blow with.

That said, I wouldn't call any ego egregiously superfluous if it can generate with FA, SI and Telepathy.

[Pete Mack]

I What is too early? 1000'? 1500'? In my current game I replaced a cheesy ego Slay dagger with Forasgil(!) at 800', and felt it was astonishingly lucky.

[archolewa]

As if all artifacts are equal, or some ego weapons aren't better than many artifacts? The distribution isn't, and I would argue shouldn't, be so arbitrary.

The fact that people hardly ever use ego weapons seems to support the idea that artifact weapons render ego weapons mostly superfluous. The only time Ive ever used an ego weapon is at the very end if I find a Mace of Disruption with a good ego.

The gondolin ego is the most egregious, because by the time it starts showing up, orcs and trolls are no longer a threat.

I also dont understand your concern with "arbitrary." Everything in this game has an "arbitrary" minimum depth. The game is already built around an "arbtirary" character progression (first levels are primarily how you get more powerful, then stat potions, then gear). Sometimes the RNG mixes it up a little, but this is still the general rhythm.

Making egos show up sooner, and artifacts show up later hardly makes the game any more or less arbitrary than it already is. It renders ego weapons less superfluous, and would make your first artifact weapon even more exciting than it already is.

[Estie]

how dare you say old randart algorithms were stupid; how else will i find boots of +7 Spd, +7 CON, +7 DEX, +7 STR for my warriors.

Thats not the stupid part, its the "aggravates" you forgot to mention.

[Sky]

how dare you say old randart algorithms were stupid; how else will i find boots of +7 Spd, +7 CON, +7 DEX, +7 STR for my warriors.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

As if all artifacts are equal, or some ego weapons aren't better than many artifacts? The distribution isn't, and I would argue shouldn't, be so arbitrary.

[archolewa]

Personally, I think it might not be a bad idea to remove some of the early-game artifact weapons, and make ego weapons show up sooner. Then, your (expected) weapon progression could be something like:

1. Mundane starting weapon.
2. A weapon with a few plusses
3. A slay weapon.
4. An ego weapon or two, depending on what you find.
5. Artifact weapon.

Delaying your first artifact weapon would make it feel much more special (especially when you get lucky and find one early), be less likely to trivialize the early levels (Narthanc anyone?), and would make you much more likely to see some use out of your ego weapon.

Maybe, tweak the game so that you aren't expected to get your first artifact weapon until like floor 40 or something?

I feel like Frog might do something like this, or if it doesn't, it's how things usually shake out for me (though I often play Polearmmaster, so I need not just an artifact weapon, but an artifact polearm).