What is up with level feelings?

[Sphara]

By the way, do mimics cause feelings? I swear several times I've gotten something like ?-8 on a level with literally nothing on it except potion mimic posing as augmentation or experience.

Again, without knowing how to code-dive, I dare to say: no.
I've seen a Ring of Speed on ?-2 level floor and I just attacked it afar knowing it's a mimic, without bothering to bump into it.

I've also had a rare situation, where I absolutely could not find the big feeling -item from early dungeon. For an item that monster can pick up, one rare occurrence is that Novice Rogue picks up a ring of speed or a potion of experience and Blubbering Icky Thing then tramples over him destroying the item in process

[Ugramoth]

I agree that early 9-2 is probably a pit full of experience and late 9-2 is treasure packed unique lurching around on otherwise empty level.

By the way, do mimics cause feelings? I swear several times I've gotten something like ?-8 on a level with literally nothing on it except potion mimic posing as augmentation or experience.

[Werbaer]

Very rare, but possible.
I just had a 1-6 level at 2450'. A very small cavern level (100 x 35), with a Demonic Q (2250') as the only monster native below 1500'.

And now a 1-6 level at 4000'. Again a 100 x 35 cavern level, with a Glabrezu (from 2150') as deepest monster.

[Huqhox]

After a mere few seconds of thought, my instant (and probably incorrect) reaction to this is: Do we care about under depth monsters at all? They don't necessarily make the level easier. What I am worried about is what OOD nasties I am going to encounter, not if there's the odd grey mold or jackal I'm going to mow down without even noticing

[bughunter]

It has always felt to me like that. So what about dividing the whole thing by dlvl and calibrating anew ?

I've spent the morning cogitating over this formula, hoping to have an inspiration for a specific suggestion, but don't have much yet.

Some insights, though:

- This is the formula I've deduced from the thread:
Danger_level = SUM[(MLn^2 x (MLn - DL)) / DL, 1, N]
where
N is the number of monsters on the level
n is the index number for each monster
MLn is the nth monster's level
DL is the dungeon level
SUM is a function that sums the first argument evaluation starting with n = second argument and continuing through n = third argument.

- The expression also evaluates to (MLn^3/DL - ML), meaning that the result is going to be proportional to the cube of the monster level.

- For low levels, there are going to be few monsters below their depth, so that (MLn - DL) will almost always be positive.

- At deeper levels, a lot of monsters will appear where (MLn - DL) is negative.

- This negative term will offset the effect of DL on the resulting value.

- There is clearly a missing normalization step... I'm guessing it's got a DL^2 or DL^3 term in it somewhere, and then scales to 1 through 9.


I'm completely whiffing on any suggestions for changes, other than:

- Instead of dividing by DL, maybe divide by DL^2 ?? I'd have to see this in practice before really endorsing it as more than anything but a brainstorm.

- Perhaps add a scaling factor for proximity of high level monsters to other high level monsters, to weight pits higher than solitary roaming monsters.

- This proximity factor would be something like (MLn / (MLi * SQRT(Xdistance_i^2, Ydistance_i^2)) for each monster n to each other monster i... needs more thought... this can become computationally intensive.

- Perhaps filter out monsters in the above for which (MLn - DL) < 0 to reduce the calculation burden.

[Estie]

If I'm reading this right, danger feeling is proportional to depth. 51^2*1/50 is just over 51, while 26^2*1/25 is a little over 25, both for a monster 1 level OOD.

It has always felt to me like that. So what about dividing the whole thing by dlvl and calibrating anew ?

[wobbly]

Was the change that reduced odds of under depth monsters in 4.1? When was that added? The 7-? are usually pits in my experience.

[DavidMedley]

(square of monster level x levels out-of-depth)

for each monster, added together and divided by the dungeon level.

If I'm reading this right, danger feeling is proportional to depth. 51^2*1/50 is just over 51, while 26^2*1/25 is a little over 25, both for a monster 1 level OOD.

[Nick]

This continues to confuse me. Does anybody know why they were changed from 4.1?

I think this is probably because of the overhaul of the monster list in 4.2. The main part of the monster feeling calculations is

(square of monster level x levels out-of-depth)

for each monster, added together and divided by the dungeon level. It's not immediately clear to me how this had led to bigger danger levels, but it seems like the likely culprit.

[Egavactip]

Continuing to play 4.2, , with a bit of extra stair scumming to try to see more levels, I am still consistently amazed at how drastically different level feelings are from 4.1. I have never in my life seen so many 9 difficulty levels at DL 30 or easier, and almost every single one of them paired with extraordinarily low treasure levels.

The low treasure level to difficulty level ratio continues. It seems that less than 1 in 10 levels is (again, DL 30 or easier) is producing a treasure level equal to or better than the danger level. Far more typical are results like 4-1, 5-2, 6-2, 7-2, and so on. Getting a 4-4 almost feels like a gift from the gods.

Not that, I should add, I am necessarily seeing all of these translate into what I would call actual treasure or difficulty results commensurate to the numbers given. I have gone through entire 7 difficulty levels without ever figuring out what generated the 7 difficulty level, while I most of the very few better treasure level indicators also similarly were mysterious in what bumped those levels up. In both my attempts so far, one dead and one ongoing, virtually all of the good gear of any type was from combat drops (some of the drops being very good indeed).

This continues to confuse me. Does anybody know why they were changed from 4.1?

[Werbaer]

Low-danger levels quickly become exceedingly rare. Has someone actually seen a 1-? level after like DL15 or is it even possible?

Very rare, but possible.
I just had a 1-6 level at 2450'. A very small cavern level (100 x 35), with a Demonic Q (2250') as the only monster native below 1500'.

[whartung]

Do the treasure level feelings include items that will be dropped by mobs?

No, the treasure feelings are about the items specifically placed on the level during generation, it can't control what the mobs drop. It also can't control the random spawning of a mob and what it drops.

A 9-2 level may well have some nice treasures -- after you kill the very nasty creature(s) that are giving you the 9 rating in the first place, but the 2 says that these nasty creatures didn't bring any nice loot with them just sitting on the ground.

[fph]

If you get a 9 rating, it's probably because there are two pits on the level. Even in 4.2 I've never seen a single pit produce a 9-x level, usually it's 6-x or 7-x.

I thought level feeling thresholds went like 2^n, so that if one pit produces 6 then two identical pits of the same kind would produce 7.

[PowerWyrm]

In 4.1 an ant pit or a tengu pit would not produce a 9 difficulty rating.

If you get a 9 rating, it's probably because there are two pits on the level. Even in 4.2 I've never seen a single pit produce a 9-x level, usually it's 6-x or 7-x.

[mrfy]

You are not going to have a Rod of Detection on DL4.

True, but I'll probably have the priest prayer Detect Evil by then. And will soon discover detect treasure scrolls or rods.