Blackguards: 4.2.0 to 4.2.1

[Philip]

If Blackguards are supposed to revolve around a sort of "battle-rage" idea of combat (presumably in contrast to warriors who are more careful, deliberate, and use ranged combat as well as melee), then I think it would be reasonable to represent it by something other than SP, personally.

My idea is for Blackguards to have a sort of special numerical effect, which could be called Rage, or Adrenaline, or Bloodthirst, or anything.
Rage would increase when the Blackguard gets hit, but increase more when hit from range, or when hit hard, would increase when the Blackguard kills a monster, and would decay instantly if the Blackguard gets out of sight of all monsters (this creates weird situations with invisibility and blindness, which should by all rights be enraging, but would actually end Rage with this implementation, but that could be fixed). Rage would also decay normally, in combat, by something like 10% every turn, and the decay gets turned into SP (this means that after most fights, as they calm down they get their SP back, and it encourages use of SP throughout the fight, to avoid wasting resources). A spell, called Berserker or something, could be used to create Rage manually when needed.
This Rage effect would give, proportionally to its value, a small general speed boost (capped at +5 or lower), a large boost to movement speed (to make Blackguards able to navigate battlefields easily while fighting, and also create tactical depth by allowing the Blackguard to run away to the nearest corner, where they lose all their Rage, recharging their SP and allowing them to reengage in the fight a bit later once they've healed up and rebuffed), increased critical hit chance (IMO a thematic combat boost for them to get, that also rewards use of large-dice heavy weapons), and damage reduction (this would presumably be the most powerful part of the cocktail). It would also reduce the effectiveness of healing and cause aggravation in a radius that increases with Rage, as compensation for being very powerful. Any of these boosts could, if wanted, be gated behind a temporary buff.

This version of Blackguards should be absolutely garbage at ranged combat of any sort. More or less incapable of doing anything to anyone not right next to them, but pretty good at getting next to things and then doing things to them. Perhaps one of their higher-level buffs could give them temporary resistance to side-effects of melee hits (like disenchantment and such) that normally punish people for trying to use melee? Their stealth wouldn't necessarily be garbage (let's say, warrior-tier), but the second they get into a fight everyone knows it and joins in. Their fights are not "start hitting and don't stop until everything dies or you die" but revolve around a sort of tempo, with tactical breaks in tougher fights. They don't mind having a lot of enemies, but try to avoid being surrounded.

If casting still provides a HP refund, this would create a situation where getting into a fight gets you a combat boost that decays into SP, which decays into HP, which I think is a reasonable buffer to have to reward fighting with HP without having Vampirism.

[Nick]

My idea is for Blackguards to have a sort of special numerical effect, which could be called Rage, or Adrenaline, or Bloodthirst, or anything.
Rage would increase when the Blackguard gets hit, but increase more when hit from range, or when hit hard, would increase when the Blackguard kills a monster, and would decay instantly if the Blackguard gets out of sight of all monsters (this creates weird situations with invisibility and blindness, which should by all rights be enraging, but would actually end Rage with this implementation, but that could be fixed). Rage would also decay normally, in combat, by something like 10% every turn, and the decay gets turned into SP (this means that after most fights, as they calm down they get their SP back, and it encourages use of SP throughout the fight, to avoid wasting resources). A spell, called Berserker or something, could be used to create Rage manually when needed.

This is very close to what they already have - bloodlust, from the Thirst for Blood spell. This is started by casting, but then charges up by killing things and gives big melee bonuses when highly charged.

[DavidMedley]

Lots in this post, but I'm just going to pick out a couple things

This version of Blackguards should be absolutely garbage at ranged combat of any sort.

I agree. Where on the scale of other classes do you think they should fall? In the version I'm working on I've dropped their Shoot skill 10 points to 40:30, which is equal to the Druid, less than Paladin and much less than Warrior or Ranger. But still twice as high as Mage and Necromancer. Also, their melee skill is unchanged from previous versions -- equal to Ranger, slightly less than Paladin and significantly less than Warrior. Presumably they have enough tricks to make up for this.

Perhaps one of their higher-level buffs could give them temporary resistance to side-effects of melee hits (like disenchantment and such) that normally punish people for trying to use melee?

We're on the same page here. Current test version gives temporary rConf and FrAct at CL12 and a restoration spell at CL40, though that feels late to me.

Disenchantment is one of the melee side-effects we're currently forcing the BG to navigate without help. Wouldn't be very fun if they had immunity to all the negative melee effects... or would it??

[Philip]

Well, kind of. My proposal is for a more powerful mechanic that is a central class feature, rather than a spell-based effect that you only get later on in the game. Also, my proposal is less focused on boosting combat (though of course better crits are a combat boost, and so is +speed) and more on encouraging a particular sort of battlefield control/management. Also, it doubles as a form of SP regen in my proposal.

EDIT: Agree that BG should be vulnerable in melee in some form. I think having them on the caster scale of ranged combat is more or less correct. The melee skill seems at the right point too, so long as they're not horrible early game due to the light weapon penalty, which it seems you're moving away from anyway.

[Chud]

This is very close to what they already have - bloodlust, from the Thirst for Blood spell. This is started by casting, but then charges up by killing things and gives big melee bonuses when highly charged.

Does this expire and need to be re-cast periodically, or does it effectively last indefinitely as long as the BG stays in combat?

[Nick]

Does this expire and need to be re-cast periodically, or does it effectively last indefinitely as long as the BG stays in combat?

It counts down every turn, and will eventually run out unless you kill something else.

[Grotug]

I like philip's ideas as they are quite intuitive and logical and encourage the type of play that I already try to employ with HT/Warriors. I would also thump the drum for BG to get really abysmal device skill as I'm not sure aggravation is a big enough penalty for all the buffs of rage/bloodlust. Device skill should take a -50 hit or something like that, or device skill should be inversely proportional to how much rage/bloodlust BG is experiencing.

Maybe a middle ground for the rDisenchanment issue could be that BG's need to experience disenchantment of their gear for them to gain the ability to automatically identify items that have rDisenchantment (but they also need to have reached CL40). In other words, they need to reach CL40 and have had some gear disenchanted at some point in their game.

[DavidMedley]

Rage would increase when the Blackguard kills a monster

Considered this initially. The problem I had with it is I don't want the same reward (SP in my version) for killing a mouse or blubbering idiot as for killing something tougher and level appropriate. I give a percentage of max SP for 1) every round of melee attacks made by the player, and 2) for the percentage of max HP lost to each enemy attack.

Bloodlust does increase for each kill, but that's an effect that is far less flexible than SP.

a large boost to movement speed (to make Blackguards able to navigate battlefields easily while fighting, and also create tactical depth by allowing the Blackguard to run away to the nearest corner

Well, I'm trying to make the BG not use these kinds of tricks. I have a very early "charge" spell that helps them get closer but can't help them escape. And we're keeping Throw Monster which can achieve distance in a more thematically satisfying way. If you're getting beat up, you can still use things like PD, but I'm trying to not aid kiting and LoS cheese for this class.

[Philip]

Ultimately, the precise triggers for building up whatever meter the BG is going to use are going to depend on the desired player behavior. My thing, which rewards getting hit at range, getting hit a lot, and killing many monsters, would encourage the player to hang around messy battlefields with plenty of mooks to recharge on (which is also kind of what my reward scheme encourages, particularly the increased movement speed). Yours rewards a pitched battle against a worthy opponent, which has the advantage that every other class is also optimized for that kind of situation (arguably, Dispel Evil rewards Priests for hanging out in particular messy battlefields, but even that drops off, and certainly doesn't apply to the big two battles), because the spiky monster damage output discourages having multiple monsters in line of sight.

[DavidMedley]

I'm definitely reading and re-reading all the feedback in this post for inspiration. I hope no one takes my responses as dismissive.

[DavidMedley]

BG to get really abysmal device skill

It seems to me that BGs, as a semi-caster, should get semi-caster levels of device skill, which is where it's set in 4.2.0. Berserk Strength reduces device skill by 10% in 4.2.0. Blood Lust doesn't, but that's a good possibility.

[Sphara]

I really appreciate the passion developing a different fighting style here!
Breath/rare manastorm mechanic however, make it very hard. Killhole and hockeystick still remain great tactic.

I was thinking about an ability where you regenerate more and more quickly the more monsters are in sight. During that ability, you'd get nasty bleeding if less than two are visible. That would discourage using both killholes and hockeystick. But it would still mean that having two big breathers in sight, would probably still be hazardous.

Just throwing an idea in. Keep the brainstorming going!

[archolewa]

I'm a little bit leery about giving massive penalties to Device skill (some penalties are probably fine). My biggest issue with the Berserker in Frogcomposband is that you can do only two things: stab, and drink potions. This means that berserkers pretty quickly hit a ceiling, and you in fact have to be *even more* careful than with other classes, because once you start a fight you have to finish it.

Fundamentally, Angband is all about picking your battles, with escapes available when you (inevitably) make a mistake, or you just get a little unlucky and things go sideways. Having a class that plays a little against type is fine, but go too far and either you have a *massively* powerful class who can take three ancient dragons and a pack of balrogs at once, or a *massively* difficult class who has to fight every fight they get into, winnable or not, and has difficulty avoiding them in the first place.

So either they need a halfway decent device skill, or they need a *Destruction* spell or something. A high movement speed is all well and good, but that doesn't really seem to me like a very useful escape. The player doesn't really have an easy way of assessing whether they can safely get around the corner before the Tarrasque breaths on them.

[DavidMedley]

I'm a little bit leery about giving massive penalties to Device skill (some penalties are probably fine).

I agree. We're already punishing BGs for resting and shooting. I think that's enough for now.

[DavidMedley]

Making Progress

Here's what I've programmed and tested so far:

• SP degeneration
• SP refilling from melee attacks and losing HP to enemy attacks
• Expanded (but hacked) Spell List

The playstyle (after many adjustments) is pretty much what I was hoping for.

• Some nice positives right away to counter the negatives
• Lots of incentive to get into melee.
• If you have leftover MP and reasonable HP there's plenty of incentive to keep on trucking. But with very low HP or no MP it's prudent to rest.
• HP recovery that works better the more damaged you are (nothing that will make paladins jealous).
• When you have to escape combat you have more incentive to get right back in that monster's face (after quaffing some healing pots, of course!).
• The above 3 items keep the pace at a much higher level than standard Angband play, which is different and fun.
• Instead of being bored by low level monsters, they look like small SP boosts to the player (bullying for fun and profit)
• 2 very fun fear effects, largely because you have a move & attack spell to chase enemies down!
• Kept most if not all of the best stuff from 4.2.0 and nightlies: berserk, CotD, poison, taunt, throw, thirst.

My new working title/description for the essential blackguard quality, from player_property.txt:
code:COMBAT_REGEN
name:Combat Regeneration
desc:Battle fuels your spirit, but complacency dims it

I have one big hack in the spell list that I need to fix. Otherwise I can provide a playable version which is pretty darn close to what I want in terms of gameplay, but farther away in terms of programming effort, and not too much thought given yet to balance vs other classes. I think the way to do this is on my own angband fork, but I'll defer to Nick on how to proceed. I have a small team of testers already: my sons, ages 12 and 9. They're scheduled to dig in this weekend.