Preparation for Angband 4.2.1: classes

[DavidMedley]

I don't have a problem with the Druid having a melee form to shapeshift into early on. It's pretty fun, actually. I just don't think "Fox" should be the go-to melee form, and blows[2] moves[1] is crazy good at a time when you almost certainly have 1.0 blows.

[Pete Mack]

Nick-- out of curiousity, why did Rogue lose 2 hit dice? It already lost CON and STR. Add in the loss of buffing and there's not much left to the class. (Stealing is a nearly useless gimmick, unless you add a high level "detect objects on monster" bolt spell. Yeah, it is powerful, but you would lose any artifacts if you abandon the fight.)

[archolewa]

I will agree that stealing is useless, Ive been playing a lot of Rogue lately and I never user it. Similarly with the spell that lets you steal and run away. At first I thought it could be useful as a guaranteed escape, except the spell has a very short duration and you seem to only teleport If your theft succeeds.

Really I think if we want to give Rogues something class specific it should be a backstab bonus for hitting a sleeping opponent. Plays well with the high stealth, and the fact that they're sort of a warrior-mage hybrid.

[Chud]

I have to play more druids to cement my opinion on this, but to me the drawback of the shifted forms in general is losing two turns to heal since you can't use a potion or an escape in shifted form; you have to shift, quaff, shift back, and then resume the fight, getting hit as you do so.

[Nick]

Nick-- out of curiousity, why did Rogue lose 2 hit dice? It already lost CON and STR. Add in the loss of buffing and there's not much left to the class. (Stealing is a nearly useless gimmick, unless you add a high level "detect objects on monster" bolt spell. Yeah, it is powerful, but you would lose any artifacts if you abandon the fight.)

Well, the idea was that all the classes should have a distinct feeling to them - for rogues that was stealth and trickery. Certainly their melee has been nerfed a bit, but in the context of re-balancing everything, not just in isolation. Arguably they were a bit OP before, with most of the advantages of warriors plus stealth and a ton of magic. Notice that they also have good throwing ability, and throwing is a thing now - more so in the nightlies.

Note that I'm not trying to make rogues less fun, but the idea was the whole game was going to be a bit harder in 4.2. Note that the rogue competition had several winners, so clearly they haven't been nerfed too hard.

Really I think if we want to give Rogues something class specific it should be a backstab bonus for hitting a sleeping opponent. Plays well with the high stealth, and the fact that they're sort of a warrior-mage hybrid.

Add sling bonuses to them as well and my plan to turn V into FA will be complete

[DavidMedley]

I have to play more druids to cement my opinion on this, but to me the drawback of the shifted forms in general is losing two turns to heal since you can't use a potion or an escape in shifted form; you have to shift, quaff, shift back, and then resume the fight, getting hit as you do so.

Shifting back doesn't take a turn. This is the great gift given to shapeshifters! In a world where shifting back does take a turn the forms would need to be more powerful.

[wobbly]

I agree with David on fox form, though I think I'd like to try a hobbit druid before reaching a final opinion. My half troll druid was very much melee until the final fight, I didn't really use many spells because it was constantly easier to turn into a fox & bif things. Final fight was LOS cheese using eagle form. This was ridiculously easy to keep reseting when you move at 3x speed, Morgoth would parallel the corridor & when he got a couple of steps away - eagle & reset. Not sure it still works now he area tunnels. Eagle was strong but it was a little disappointing it didn't have another use. I guess you can melee nightmares & titans using its confusion resistance, but outside movement speed it doesn't have much.

Add sling bonuses to them as well and my plan to turn V into FA will be complete

When are rogues getting monster traps?

[Pete Mack]

Oh, well if you add mana burn, I will take back every bad thing I said about rogues being nerfed.

I don't think that rogues are unwinnable, just they don't have much character anymore. They have one gimmick left: be stealthy and have uber detection (although no mapping for some reason, which is certainly in character for a floor loot specialist.) That gets old fast.

[Nick]

OK, while we've got this open, here's a list of things we could give to rogues:

• Mana burn
• Monster traps
• Sling proficiency (probably extra shots)
• Backstab
• Even better throwing (I haven't thoroughly tested how good it is in the nightlies, but I'm pretty sure there's room for improvement)

And while we're getting crazy, there's always the possibility of doing O/FA style specialty abilities...

[archolewa]

OK, while we've got this open, here's a list of things we could give to rogues:

• Mana burn
• Monster traps
• Sling proficiency (probably extra shots)
• Backstab
• Even better throwing (I haven't thoroughly tested how good it is in the nightlies, but I'm pretty sure there's room for improvement)

And while we're getting crazy, there's always the possibility of doing O/FA style specialty abilities...

Are there any advantages that throwing has over just using a launcher? It always seems kind of tedious to me, because I always have to use 2+ keystrokes to use it rather than just pressing Tab with a launcher. Plus, throwers would presumably have to be *very* powerful to justify being better than the x2-x4 bonuses that launchers give.

Something that I think could be interesting if you want to increase throwing, is give rogues the ability to throw potions for effects. I know that lots of roguelikes let you throw potions at monsters to inflict statues on them (i.e. throw a potion of blindness to blind an opponent). I don't know quite how this would work since almost every potion in Angband is beneficial, but it's something to consider.

Or, while we're on the subject of potions, what if instead of stealing, rogues got a quiver for potions or wands? It makes sense to me that a crafty trickster would have a few tricks up their sleeves for storing an extra potion or wand or two.

What is Mana burn?

I'm not a fan of Sling proficiency. Rangers already have the "I'm uber good at range weapons" thing down. Plus, I at least have never encountered an artifact sling, which means that ability will probably only be useful in the early game, and I don't generally have trouble there. The midgame gives me trouble, but that's more to do with not being particularly good at fragile sneaksters.

Monster traps is presumably laying down traps for monsters? That could be fun.

[Adam]

Something that I think could be interesting if you want to increase throwing, is give rogues the ability to throw potions for effects. I know that lots of roguelikes let you throw potions at monsters to inflict statues on them (i.e. throw a potion of blindness to blind an opponent). I don't know quite how this would work since almost every potion in Angband is beneficial, but it's something to consider.

We could have more attack potions which activate for certain spells (various ball spells, the necro's noxious fumes etc, also the existing sleep/poison/blindness/paralyze potions could be used this way). The difference to wands/rods would be that these don't rely on magic device skill but throwing (so more suitable for warrior types).

[DavidMedley]

Less Books is More

I'm going through old_class.txt to see if there's any effects in there I can steal (so I won't have to program them myself). It's a real reminder how much I love the slimmed-down spell lists! Of course, there's a lot of pressure to make each spell valuable in the new format. But that's so much better than just throwing a bunch of spells at the player, conceding that many are not very useful. All the hybrid casters had NINE books!!

[Pete Mack]

@David-- the big book stack is intentional, so other classes don't get more free inventory slots than warriors. And in any case, some of the books just aren't worth carrying for half-casters (and eventually for full-casters, too.) MB2 and PB1 often get left at home by all classes, and only Mage is likely to carry Raal's, etc.
Nick cut the book count, but it is balanced by losing essentially all buffing and defensive spells, so all classes carry a significant fraction of !rFire, !rCold, !rPois, _Speed, -TO, !Hero, -STM, where previously the were largely covered (and more than covered!) by various spell books.

[DavidMedley]

Yeah, I agree with all that. I remember in the old days you'd look at a book as a half-caster and several spells would be XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. Had a lot more reason to leave books at home. But I think the current system is better and will continue to improve with refinement.

[Pete Mack]

@Adan--can't bring back attack potions without getting rid of use-ID. Detonations and Death mean it is impossible past the early levels in old versions of V. I suppose you could make them leave you with 1 HP (min) instead.