My Thoughts on 4.2

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  • Ingwe Ingweron
    Veteran
    • Jan 2009
    • 2129

    #76
    Originally posted by Tibarius
    In my eyes you just reveal, that you are unable (or unwilling) to handle different opinions that do not match your own view of the world.
    +1 to everything Derakon has been saying to you, and that you have failed to listen to. I will be a little more blunt, given your diatribes, I find you to be a bit of an a-hole.
    “We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
    ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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    • Nick
      Vanilla maintainer
      • Apr 2007
      • 9637

      #77
      Originally posted by Tibarius
      Yeah, i just came to the same conclusion Gwarl. The things i consider moving into a wrong direction are meanwhile to a vast majority configured with the gamedata .txt files. THAT is by the way, GREAT work from Nick. And i will just create my own variant modifying those files to my needs.
      I had been planning to encourage you to make your own variant, I'm glad you have chosen to do that yourself. Good luck with it!

      DavidMedley: Sorry, I'll talk about you next
      One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
      In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

      Comment

      • Nick
        Vanilla maintainer
        • Apr 2007
        • 9637

        #78
        Originally posted by DavidMedley
        The construction (PLAYER_LEVEL+10)+m(PLAYER_LEVEL/4) doesn't look like it does (to a noob like me) what the help says it does. It looks like it adds, like other similar uses of the + symbol. But it actually unpacks to say "if whatever follows this m is greater than the previous expression, use this percentage of player max HP instead." That is to say, it's a minimum.

        Is that right? Using + here seems like a bad choice, presumably made in the long long ago.
        Yes, that's right.

        The choice of '+' was made a while ago, but then also remade when I moved this stuff to data files. It is in some respects a bad choice, because of exactly the confusion you've highlighted. The alternative would have been to add an extra parameter into the dice expression code just to deal with the percentage case which only turns up in healing potions. I was very unwilling to do that - the dice and expression code was written (in much better C than I write) entirely by Molybdenum just after I took over as maintainer; it's incredibly useful; and frankly I struggle to understand it enough to make the odd tweak.

        In summary: yes, my fault, I regret nothing
        One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
        In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

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        • sanedragon
          Rookie
          • Jul 2019
          • 8

          #79
          Originally posted by DavidMedley
          The construction (PLAYER_LEVEL+10)+m(PLAYER_LEVEL/4) doesn't look like it does (to a noob like me) what the help says it does. It looks like it adds, like other similar uses of the + symbol. But it actually unpacks to say "if whatever follows this m is greater than the previous expression, use this percentage of player max HP instead." That is to say, it's a minimum.
          I feel like I'm missing something here, because PLAYER_LEVEL+10 will always be greater than PLAYER_LEVEL/4.

          Comment

          • Nick
            Vanilla maintainer
            • Apr 2007
            • 9637

            #80
            Originally posted by sanedragon
            I feel like I'm missing something here, because PLAYER_LEVEL+10 will always be greater than PLAYER_LEVEL/4.
            The trick is that the B line is used to calculate a number of HP, and the M line is used to calculate a percentage, and then the spell restores whichever of those is greater. So for a CL20 character with 200 HP, it would restore 30HP (as 5% of 200 is 10, which is less); for a CL40 character with 600HP it would restore 60 as 10% of 600, because 40+10 is less.
            One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
            In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

            Comment

            • Pete Mack
              Prophet
              • Apr 2007
              • 6883

              #81
              But both expressions are in terms of PLAYER_LEVEL, not PLAYER_MHP (or whatever.) So i am still confused

              Comment

              • DavidMedley
                Veteran
                • Oct 2019
                • 1004

                #82
                Originally posted by Pete Mack
                But both expressions are in terms of PLAYER_LEVEL, not PLAYER_MHP (or whatever.) So i am still confused
                The first is in terms of HP (1 = 1 HP) the second is in terms of % of max HP (1 = 1% of max HP).
                Please like my indie game company on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/RatherFunGames

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                • Nick
                  Vanilla maintainer
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 9637

                  #83
                  Originally posted by Pete Mack
                  But both expressions are in terms of PLAYER_LEVEL, not PLAYER_MHP (or whatever.) So i am still confused
                  That's because the amounts restored (whether flat or percentage) increase as the player levels up. So, for example, a CL20 character gets 5% of their max HP restored - the player level tells you it's 5%, and then you go away, find their max HP, and restore 5% of that. When they get to CL40, it's 10% and you do the same thing.
                  One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                  In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                  Comment

                  • sanedragon
                    Rookie
                    • Jul 2019
                    • 8

                    #84
                    Ok, I think I get this now.

                    The dice expression sets the base to PLAYER_LEVEL + 10 and the m_bonus to PLAYER_LEVEL / 4. (z-dice.c)

                    HEAL_HP interprets the base as a number of hit points and the m_bonus as a percentage of missing HP, and chooses the greater of those as the healing power. (effects.c)

                    The challenge in interpreting these dice expressions is that the code for different effects can interpret the meaning of the 4 parts of the dice struct in different ways, or ignore them entirely. HEAL_HP appears to ignore the number and sides of dice, for example.

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                    • DavidMedley
                      Veteran
                      • Oct 2019
                      • 1004

                      #85
                      Originally posted by sanedragon
                      m_bonus as a percentage of missing HP
                      Ooh, good catch. I thought it was a percentage of *max* HP.

                      From effects.c:
                      num = ((player->mhp - player->chp) * context->value.m_bonus) / 100;
                      Please like my indie game company on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/RatherFunGames

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                      • Nick
                        Vanilla maintainer
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 9637

                        #86
                        Originally posted by DavidMedley
                        Ooh, good catch. I thought it was a percentage of *max* HP.

                        From effects.c:
                        num = ((player->mhp - player->chp) * context->value.m_bonus) / 100;
                        Wow, I guess I must have known that at some point. That makes the percentage less useful unless you really need it, I guess.

                        I'd just like to say, too, I really like the way this thread is getting more airtime for the details of game mechanics. There's been a lot of work gone into this over a long time (some of it mine, but mostly other people's), and it's good to see that get recognition - as well as healthy for the codebase to be exposed to the light.
                        One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                        In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                        Comment

                        • DavidMedley
                          Veteran
                          • Oct 2019
                          • 1004

                          #87
                          Originally posted by Nick
                          I really like the way this thread is getting more airtime for the details of game mechanics.
                          Hey, Nick, it's all thanks to you!! ...not updating the documentation. LOL

                          Seriously, tho, I'm a fan of your work. Keep it up!
                          Please like my indie game company on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/RatherFunGames

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                          • Pete Mack
                            Prophet
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 6883

                            #88
                            One thing is very confusing: m$M can be read in two ways: as concatenation and as multiplication. I recommend requiring '*' here so it is easuer to read--'m' really needs to stand out in that expression.

                            Comment

                            • sanedragon
                              Rookie
                              • Jul 2019
                              • 8

                              #89
                              From what I understand, the dice expression "m$M" sets the m_bonus to the M expression, and doesn't have to do with concatenation or multiplication.

                              Comment

                              • DavidMedley
                                Veteran
                                • Oct 2019
                                • 1004

                                #90
                                Perhaps a | which can mean "or"?
                                Please like my indie game company on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/RatherFunGames

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