Persons and humanoids

[Nick]

In the process of revamping the monster list, I keep putting off dealing with persons ('p') and humanoids ('h'), and this is mainly because I can't come up with any strategy for them that seems consistent. So here are a few facts/opinions that I've assembled:

• The uniques are all from Tolkien's writings, except for Harowen and Fundin Bluecloak; in my opinion they need very little if any work
• Many of the non-unique humans are based on the (6 original) player classes, in three grades: soldier, cutpurse, acolyte, apprentice, scout, gallant; Easterling warrior, bandit/brigand, priest, illusionist, ranger, paladin; Easterling champion, master rogue/master thief, mage/sorcerer, patriarch, ranger chieftain, knight Templar
• The remainder are healer (fairly new), ninja/dagashi, mystic/master mystic/grand master mystic, black knight/death knight, enchantress/necromancer/demonologist, berserker
• Non-unique humanoids are pretty much (D&D) dark elf versions of some of the humans, with the addition of scruffy-looking hobbits, gnome mages and mind flayers

Notably missing from the humanoids are (Tolkien) elves, dwarves and hobbits. Likewise the humans are (apart from the Easterling branding on what used to be swordsmen and hardened warriors) generic fantasy. Some examples of possible Tolkienian inclusions are corsairs, variags, Dunlendings, southrons, black Numenoreans, dwarves of Nogrod, Feanorian elves, ruffians, shirriffs, wainriders, balchoth, men of Angmar, men of Carn Dum, petty-dwarves...

So, what would people like to see? Still player class-based creatures? Tolkienisation? Which of the above are people particularly attached to (I'm thinking the mystic family is kind of iconic Angband)? Are there any additions you would like to see from variants or elsewhere?

Voice your opinions, please.

[jevansau]

I don't mind the D&D style low level humans, but Tolkeinisation of the high level ones and humanoids might be good.

I like the uniques and "the remainder".

[PowerWyrm]

Fundin Bluecloak is the father of Balin, uncle of Gimli.

[Nick]

Fundin Bluecloak is the father of Balin, uncle of Gimli.

Balin's father Fundin died at the Battle of Azanulbizar - there is no record of whether he was a priest or what colour his cloak was

[Clearshade]

Fundin Bluecloak was the name of the first @ to beat Morgoth back at Warwick Uni.

[Derakon]

Yeah, Fundin should stick around more or less as-is for "game mythology" reasons, not so much setting mythology.

As for the existing classes, some thoughts:
* Necromancer, Demonologist, and Enchantress are relatively rare concepts in that they summon fairly powerful monsters that are not of the same type as they are -- otherwise summoning tends to be "a monster calling for friends that look like it". If you're going to keep one though, the Enchantress is the most memorable because she's fast.
* Most Dark Elf monsters are fast, which makes a big difference in them standing out.
* Berserkers have a place in northern European mythology, which I feel is at least Tolkein-adjacent. They're also kind of a rarity in that by the time you get to their depth most monsters have some kind of non-melee attack, while they're just powerful, hard-to-kill bruisers.

I don't really mind the "reskinned player classes" thing; it does at least make it pretty easy to tell what you're up against. I'd have some mild concern that if you renamed them to be things from Tolkein, then you'd lose some "legibility", so to speak, in that players wouldn't have that easy read of what the monster is capable of. But that might be an unfounded concern.

[wobbly]

I'm fine with the generics. Ninja/dagashi are a bit off-putting. Dark elves I'd prefer named something else, I'm just not volunteering to redraw all the tiles.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Some examples of possible Tolkienian inclusions are corsairs, variags, Dunlendings, southrons, black Numenoreans, dwarves of Nogrod, Feanorian elves, ruffians, shirriffs, wainriders, balchoth, men of Angmar, men of Carn Dum, petty-dwarves...

Yes!!! All of these as additions, or renaming existing non-uniques.

[Nick]

Fundin Bluecloak was the name of the first @ to beat Morgoth back at Warwick Uni.

Nice, that's excellent to know

As for the rest, there's nothing anyone's said that really conflicts with any of my thinking, although partly that's because my thinking is still a bit indefinite. I think I'll put them off a bit longer and see if anything else emerges from my thoughts or anyone else's.

[Voovus]

Fundin Bluecloak was the name of the first @ to beat Morgoth back at Warwick Uni.

Maybe this could show up in the monster description?


Regarding Nick's original post, I'm less interested in the Tolkienisation of (Vanilla) Angband as in the preservation of Moria. Here's the list of Moria persons/humanoids (courtesy of Mor. Preserv. Soc.). I'd be sorry to see more of them go.

Bandit,
Battle-Scarred Veteran,
Berzerker,
Black Knight,
Blubbering Idiot,
Brigand,
Evil Iggy,
Filthy Street Urchin,
Greedy Little Gnome,
Mage,
Magic User,
Mangy-Looking Leper,
Mean-Looking Mercenary,
Nasty Little Gnome,
Necromancer,
Ninja,
Novice Mage,
Novice Priest,
Novice Rogue,
Novice Warrior,
Pitiful-Looking Beggar,
Priest,
Scruffy-Looking Hobbit,
Seedy Looking Human,
Singing, Happy Drunk,
Sorcerer,
Squint-Eyed Rogue,
Swordsman,
Warrior.

I'm sorry that Greedy Little Gnome and Nasty Little Gnome have disappeared - they had character. Also, why did dear ol' Evil Iggy disappear? He was as irritating at 2500' as Smeagol is at 150', and doesn't have an Angband analogue.

I do like the Angband "adventurer parties" consisting of characters of different classes (cutpurse, soldier, acolyte etc), though I think they'd be more fun if they were rarer and tougher.

[tangar]

Ninja/dagashi are a bit off-putting. Dark elves I'd prefer named something else

I also think that Ninja sounds not Angbandish, but Nethackish. At the same time Dark Elves are very traditional stuff to Angband imho.

I greatly like:

corsairs, southrons, black Numenoreans, Feanorian elves, ruffians, shirriffs, men of Angmar..

Considering 'variags'.. In Russian 'variag' mean 'viking' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varyag; at the same time we also have 'viking' word. We call 'variags' guys who estabilished Russia as a country (~850 AD). Not sure that I would like to see this guys at the game @ dark side

Regarding Nick's original post, I'm less interested in the Tolkienisation of (Vanilla) Angband as in the preservation of Moria.

Yes, I'm not fun of Tolkienisation either, if it make traditional stuff go away. I think Angband has quite a lot of Tolkien and maybe it's good idea even to add more stuff from DnD... And Moria of course could be good example. But this is my personal (not expert) opinion, I just feel it like this (at the same time I huge fun of Tolkien and I've read his books dozen times)

[Carnivean]

Dagashis are from the David Eddings books, sames as Algroths were.

[Therem Harth]

Dagashi IRL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagashi

I'm imagining, like, a ninja whose speed comes from being on a sugar high.

[Netbrian]

Regarding Nick's original post, I'm less interested in the Tolkienisation of (Vanilla) Angband as in the preservation of Moria. Here's the list of Moria persons/humanoids (courtesy of Mor. Preserv. Soc.). I'd be sorry to see more of them go.

I'm on board with this too. More important than being Tolkein-y, I like it when you can monster behavior leans in to what I already know. If I'm seeing a Berserker or a Master Thief for the first time, I can immediately make an educated guess about their behavior, and I wouldn't want to lose that.

[Voovus]

On a slightly different (and possibly annoying) note, could I politely ask people to correctly spell "Tolkien"? We've had three errors in this thread.