Current master post-4.1.3

[Voovus]

Apologies for changing the subject from the spellbook discussion, but I wanted to give Nick feedback on monster changes after a recent playthrough with a priest, before I forget...

First some general non-monster comments on features/bugs:

Running made me walk into a visible summoning trap before stopping.

I can't figure out the effect of the priest spell Smite Evil. Is it supposed to increase damage? Does it override potentially more powerful slays? I switched on the numbers, but couldn't tell.

I found a few corridors ending in dead ends. This seems new. Not a problem, but wanted to check whether it is intended.

There seems to be a problem with light intensity. My randart lights (+3 light intensity) only gave a 2 light radius, unless I equipped another +1 light, in which case I got a 3 light radius.


Now on to monsters (this is very subjective):

A 9-headed hydra trampled a gorgon. Feels morally wrong.

Trees are currently classed as insects in monster knowledge. This is the wrong kingdom, let alone the wrong class or order. It's like classifying balrogs as a kind of slime mold...

I like the changes to the following monsters (or monster names): Atlas & co, dark elves, Maias, "Trees", troll scavenger.

Thematically, the trees ought to be shallower in the dungeon. Maybe down to 1800'? They shouldn't really be there on balrog depths.

I don't particularly like the following names: Dunadan of Angmar, southron assassin/archer, crow of Durthang. They seem unnatural and simply to be forcing Tolkien place names in. I wouldn't mind as much if the place names appeared in the monster descriptions instead. I actually have the same issue with bat of Gorgoroth. The Druadans also feel rather forced.

Feanorian Raider seems to give a bit too much exp. Maybe I shouldn't complain...

Faegweath, Cantoras and Vecna are not hurt by bright light. I think the same might be true for some other high level undead.

Draebor appears to be warmblooded, while imps are not.

Element-breathing ants and electrocuting centipedes: not a big deal, but I think I prefer the old versions. Leave the fire breathing to...

Dragons! Here comes my big gripe. Dragons are supposed to be rough, tough, mean and very scary. Instead, after many years of power inflation, they are pathetic. In the olden days of Moria, young and mature dragons were formidable opponents. Baby dragons weren't in, but, really, these shouldn't be wandering around without their mothers anyway. Ancient dragons were serious. In fact, the monster memory even had a special entry for this one monster type: "Ancient Dragon (Beware)". Ancient Green Dragon - presumably named after the pub in Bywater (...presumably named after the pub in Cambridge...) - was notoriously vicious. And the Ancient Multihued... well... *sigh*... And now, an ancient dragon is weaker than a killer white beetle. Really?

Oh, and Kavlax got stuck in a web.

[Youssarian]

Spellbooks very rarely spawn in the dungeon, and then mostly as drops from specific monster types. Vanilla could easily do something similar: make Novice Priests likely to drop the first prayer book, Priests likely to drop the second, Patriarchs somewhat likely to drop the third, etc. Then tone down the generation rate of prayer books as randomly-generated items.

I like this idea along with each class having their own books. It gives those classes their own flavor and depth when you play them (I prefer mage classes). Yes it increases the number of things to squelch, but we already do that with so many things as we descend deeper and deeper.

Each class already overlaps each other in how we play the game (by the end of the game we are all warriors, rangers, and mages to some degree) that having a few more things to distinguish one from the other along the way is a good thing (I think).

Maybe when you pick up a spellbook that isn't intended for your class, it will automatically ask if you want to squelch the item?

[Derakon]

My proposed solution for the books is tweaking the code so that only readable books can ever be generated.

Advantages: no more unreadable books problems; no more color issues (all books can effectively be the same color); no more high level feelings caused by an unreadable book that is effectively junk; helps towards TMJ; less confusing for newbies; no more "I bought the wrong color book by mistake".

Disadvantages: it would be the only example of the content of the dungeon changing based on the player; one cannot have an idea of the frequency of the books for class X without having played it; in some sense other spellbooks work as an "advertisement" to play class X.

I find that disadvantage to be pretty important. If players get the idea that one type of item changes frequency depending on the class they play, then they'll wonder if other items also do so. We already see too many nonexistent patterns in what the RNG produces, no need to exacerbate the issue.

ToME 2 has a whole bunch of spellbooks. Every realm (of which there are...what, 20 counting the god realms?) has a spellbook that contains every spell in that realm, plus every spell can potentially spawn as a spellbook on its own, so you could e.g. find a Spellbook of Detect Monster. And ToME 2 absolutely has a TMJ problem, but! Spellbooks very rarely spawn in the dungeon, and then mostly as drops from specific monster types. Vanilla could easily do something similar: make Novice Priests likely to drop the first prayer book, Priests likely to drop the second, Patriarchs somewhat likely to drop the third, etc. Then tone down the generation rate of prayer books as randomly-generated items.

I think that would effectively address the TMJ issue, not by reducing the item count, but by making certain items only show up in contexts where it makes sense to see them. If you're not the appropriate class to use the item, then it just becomes a bit of setting flavor.

[Timo Pietilä]

This thread is for me to update what's happening on current master, and for people to suggest/complain.

Suggestion: variable spellcasting times. A bit like fractional blows. That would allow spells that take a long time to finish (which you need uninterrupted) a bit like tunneling and spells that are really fast like high level mage casting magic missile multiple times in single normal turn.

[luneya]

My proposed solution for the books is tweaking the code so that only readable books can ever be generated.

Advantages: no more unreadable books problems; no more color issues (all books can effectively be the same color); no more high level feelings caused by an unreadable book that is effectively junk; helps towards TMJ; less confusing for newbies; no more "I bought the wrong color book by mistake".

Disadvantages: it would be the only example of the content of the dungeon changing based on the player; one cannot have an idea of the frequency of the books for class X without having played it; in some sense other spellbooks work as an "advertisement" to play class X.

Way back when the new classes first appeared, I suggested that we implement things so that on character generation, one class other than the player's would be randomly selected (or two if the player is a warrior), and then only books for the player's class and the selected class would be generated. This change would cap the TMJ problem at a level no worse than classic Angband, while still having some unusable spellbooks available to serve their various functions. I still think that is the best solution.

That said, I approve of eliminating the half-caster-specific spellbooks. It eliminates at least some of the junk, and if it means that half-casters need to carry a larger subset of the regular books, well, that's how it's always been anyway.

[Pete Mack]

Blood falcon only has a few HP. You have a likelier chance killing them with a weak wand (like frost or lightning bolt) than successfully teleporting with a rod.

[Diego Gonzalez]

Also, hi Diego!

Hi Nick! I'm truly enjoying the nightlies! The last version I played of Vanilla was 3.0.5 hehe.

Currently having fun playing a clvl 35 Necro, dlvl 53. Hoping to find the dungeon books soon.

I like the spell selection you made. I don't really use the frighten spells (not my style).

I have a suggestion... It seems to me that noxious fumes is a bit weak at low levels. Since it does poison damage to the caster, it should inflict more damage to monsters. What other necro players think?

About blood falcons. Yes, they are very hard, but with this character I chose to not fight them, and the "l"s. Luckily I found a rod of TO pretty quickly.

[fph]

My proposed solution for the books is tweaking the code so that only readable books can ever be generated.

Advantages: no more unreadable books problems; no more color issues (all books can effectively be the same color); no more high level feelings caused by an unreadable book that is effectively junk; helps towards TMJ; less confusing for newbies; no more "I bought the wrong color book by mistake".

Disadvantages: it would be the only example of the content of the dungeon changing based on the player; one cannot have an idea of the frequency of the books for class X without having played it; in some sense other spellbooks work as an "advertisement" to play class X.

[Thraalbee]

I like them. Only died once so far, first time. But I died more times due to low speed, eg vs Wiruin so the blood falcon has a purpose. Teleport, then detect detect, find large room ...

[Derakon]

If they need to be nerfed, IMO it'd be better to reduce their damage output a bit than slow them. I think that a really fast enemy with moderate melee is more distinctive than a pretty fast enemy with strong melee.

[Youssarian]

I think blood falcons might be too tough for their level. Or as I now call them, Dead @ Falcons.

I just had my level 26 necromancer killed by one. It appeared already awake and hit me. I phased door away and healed to full and in that one action it got within two squares of me. I tried to cast a spell and failed and it killed me without being able to take another action. This was at 1000'.

Went from full hit points to dead with no chance to do anything. Maybe slow them down a little?

[Nick]

Surprisingly, I miss the half-caster specific books and names too. What was the logic for why they had to be removed/reverted?

I agree. That was a nice change. I always liked how classes were very unique in O. The half-caster books made me remember that.

The primary thing was confusion about who could read what books. Previously all casters could read all books of their realm; with the current situation, at least full casters still can.

I'm certainly open to re-reverting this depending on how people feel about it. Maybe I should start a thread specifically for how to handle books and what their names should be.

Also, hi Diego!

[Pete Mack]

TMJ. With half-caster books for each realm, that would make only 1 book in 8 that any character could use, instead of 1 in 4 (still not great, but not ridiculous.)

I agree. That was a nice change. I always liked how classes were very unique in O. The half-caster books made me remember that.

[jevansau]

RE: Also, in the lore under Wormtongue, Agent of Saruman it says he does not resist nether (I casted a nether bolt). But in the game it says he resists somewhat when I cast the spell at him. Perhaps he gets a resistance from another magic source?

I believe that all evil creatures have resists somewhat to nether.

[Diego Gonzalez]

Surprisingly, I miss the half-caster specific books and names too. What was the logic for why they had to be removed/reverted?

I agree. That was a nice change. I always liked how classes were very unique in O. The half-caster books made me remember that.