Angband Philosophy III: Theme, Races and Monsters

[Moving Pictures]

.... The dwarfs use magic doors and writing, usually crafts.

What about know scroll flavours at birth?

[Sideways]

I suspect Nick will do the Nick thing in the end - copy all the races from FAangband and hope no one notices

[Whelk]

Gnomes could be changed to Druedain/Woses. If I recall correctly, they were rumored to have their own mysterious methods of mysticism/magic, which could match the gnome association with magic. They're also sort of stunted, secretive forest-dwelling folk, which seems to match the general gnome "feel." Then again, magic wasn't necessarily linked to intelligence in Tolkien's eyes, since the Druedain seemed to be intentionally more, uh ... "rustic" and I doubt could be considered superior in regards to sheer intellect.

Kobolds could be changed to, uuuhhh ... snaga? I dunno. I can't think of anything solidly Tolkien that particularly fits "stealthy and poison-resistant" except hobbits, who were small, stealthy, and were surprisingly hardy against some maladies and afflictions. But we've already got hobbits, of course, so ... a new type: burrahobbits!

[wobbly]

Something I notice comparing O and V races is that hobbits in V are taking an elfs natural designs spot. It out does the elf in everything an elf is good at and then out does it in everything it's not good at too except hps or fighting where it ain't much worse. The elf then eats the half-elfs spot leaving half-elfs no real room to be interesting.

At some pt someone decided hobbits weren't small everyday rural folk capable of great heroics. Instead they were god-like miniture Noldor. I was tempted to blame new V which is traditional but looking closer it seems this is old. Someone actually fixed gnomes to outshine the hobbit in devices.

Anyway it's worth thinking about whether hobbits should be a challenge race rather then just trading low hps for godlike abilities and stats. I think at the very least an elf should out shoot a hobbit. There's arguments either way for stealth, I'd say better rogue skills to the hobbit is better balance wise. Why god-like devices? I'd drop that to dwarf levels (in fact will). Melee I'd also be meaner. Hopefully some of the stealth ideas from the other thread come through allowing hobbits to be worse fighting aware enemies in return for something else.

[Huqhox]

That's a good analysis Wobbly. I do think Hobbits should be a challenge race (if not the challenge race)

In LOTR what Bilbo, Frodo and the other hobbits achieve isn't because they are unstoppable super human stealh ninjas, but because they are the weakest race. They are at a disadvantage against virtually everything they have to overcome. That really ought to be reflected in the game. Make them have good CON sure but no better than humans at INT, WIS and DEX and worst STR might be a good way to go with a skill set to match.

[Gwarl]

Again to see the design space occupied by hobbits, realise they are renamed halflings from moria. in that game they are the best at everything except fighting which they are terrible at and they have lousy HP.

It's easier to see where the races such as elf and half elf fit if you exclude the angband additions.

I am in favour of simply copying the race list from FA

[Derakon]

In LOTR what Bilbo, Frodo and the other hobbits achieve isn't because they are unstoppable super human stealh ninjas, but because they are the weakest race.

My understanding is that they were able to do what they did because they are unknowns. None of the great powers of the world know about hobbits or that they need to be looking out for hobbits. They also don't have an army to call on to try to solve their problems "conventionally", which forces them to use stealth and trickery to achieve their goals, but that doesn't say anything about the prowess of an individual hobbit.

That said, I'd agree that there's nothing in the story that indicates that they're any better at combat than humans are. Their primary characteristics seem to be stealthiness (which is explicitly called out, with hobbits being more silent than elves), bravery and willpower (the ability to resist using what is literally the most attractive magical item in the setting, even in considerably desperate times), and possibly endurance, considering how difficult the march was for Frodo and Sam. They probably ought to have a STR penalty to reflect their small stature.

[Sideways]

Hobbits are good at ranged combat:

They shot well with the bow, for they were keen-eyed and sure at the mark. Not only with bows and arrows. If any Hobbit stooped for a stone, it was well to get quickly under cover, as all trespassing beasts knew very well.

-- Prologue to Lord of the Rings

[wobbly]

Hobbits are good at ranged combat:[/I]

I'm not sure anyones disputing that. I certainly wasn't. In-game they're just shy of high-elf levels better than elfs & certainly at a level where a poor human archer like bard strugles to catch the hobbit archer

Again to see the design space occupied by hobbits, realise they are renamed halflings from moria. in that game they are the best at everything except fighting which they are terrible at and they have lousy HP.

It's easier to see where the races such as elf and half elf fit if you exclude the angband additions.

I am in favour of simply copying the race list from FA

You know I read this post & your previous & I'm still trying to work out what you're actually saying. I mean maybe your saying the current situation is balanced because it came from Moria & Moria is awesome. Maybe your saying it isn't because it was balanced for Moria & the game isn't Moria anymore. Shrug. I can agree with using the FA list just as I can agree with using Vs current list or Os list all of which work in various ways despite their issues. I would hope kobolds make it in renamed or not because they are fun & it'd suck to lose a working race that's fun to play.

My understanding is that they were able to do what they did because they are unknowns. None of the great powers of the world know about hobbits or that they need to be looking out for hobbits. They also don't have an army to call on to try to solve their problems "conventionally", which forces them to use stealth and trickery to achieve their goals, but that doesn't say anything about the prowess of an individual hobbit.

I mean sort of? Sauron knows about them, at least after capturing & torturing Smeagol. Sends the Nazgul after them. Gives his orcs special instructions to capture all hobbits. Sauman is also hunting them. They are not exactly unknown, not by the starting point of the fellowship of the rings.

Anyway going to leave it there. Probably post to much anyway. Nick will do what he ends up doing & a bunch of people will probably shout at him that it's all out of whack, & it goes from there.

[Voovus]

This is the area where I am most inclined to take a hardline approach to sticking to Tolkien theme.

It's a bit late, but would still like to raise an objection. The Moria/Angband universe is now a generation old and occupies a legendary place in the annals of @-kind. I would not like to see half-elf, gnome and half-troll go from Vanilla. In fact, I'd rather see some things renamed back to the original. I miss my Mage's Guide to Power.

I have no objection to racial stats/abilities being reworked for better gameplay, or to the addition of new races.

[Nick]

It's a bit late, but would still like to raise an objection. The Moria/Angband universe is now a generation old and occupies a legendary place in the annals of @-kind.

I agree, on the whole. I'm not trying to go against Moria/Angband tradition just for the hell of it, but when it seems like it jars with Tolkien legend.

I would not like to see half-elf, gnome and half-troll go from Vanilla.

If you look at my original post, I was actually intending to keep half-orcs and half-trolls, and was prepared to be convinced about half-elves.

In fact, I'd rather see some things renamed back to the original. I miss my Mage's Guide to Power.

Was that a Moria book? Re-using old non-jarring names seems like a good idea.

[Derakon]

I agree, on the whole. I'm not trying to go against Moria/Angband tradition just for the hell of it, but when it seems like it jars with Tolkien legend.

Angband is not a strictly-Tolkienian setting, though. It's always been a hodgepodge of whatever the devs at the time felt like inserting. Hell, it inherited plenty of non-Tolkienian things from Moria, like harpies, hippogriffs, giant lice, Holy Avenger weapons, etc.

I think the game benefits from a "just roll with it" approach to theme, rather than trying to hew closely to a particular setting. A strictly Tolkienian game would feel very different. How far exactly do you plan to go?

[Nick]

Angband is not a strictly-Tolkienian setting, though. It's always been a hodgepodge of whatever the devs at the time felt like inserting. Hell, it inherited plenty of non-Tolkienian things from Moria, like harpies, hippogriffs, giant lice, Holy Avenger weapons, etc.

I think the game benefits from a "just roll with it" approach to theme, rather than trying to hew closely to a particular setting. A strictly Tolkienian game would feel very different. How far exactly do you plan to go?

My emphasis

Again, I think the starting post of this thread gives a fair indication of the answer to your question.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Even FAAngband doesn't always hew specifically to Tolkien. Isn't one of the monsters even named for some annoying git the original developers knew, or is that just apocryphal?

[Pete Mack]

You mean The Complainer? Yes. But that has nothing on Elemental Hounds, which have nothing to do.with Tolkien whatsoever. And all the different colored dragons are pure D&D.