Angband Philosophy III: Theme, Races and Monsters

[Nick]

Angband is obviously based on Tolkien mythology, but has multiple other influences. Notably, it owes a lot to D&D for combat, spellcasting and monsters, including several things from other mythologies, mostly Greek - see this list, for example.

Given that the proposed (yes, still) next version will include a major rework of player races and monsters, it seems like a good idea to consider what we want thematically.

Races
This is the area where I am most inclined to take a hardline approach to sticking to Tolkien theme. So here are my assessments of the current races, done in convenient order for discussion:

• Human, Dunadan: So we have two types of human. Fine. Potentially we could look at having more, or different ones, or reconsidering stat bonuses and abilities.
• Hobbit: Great.
• Dwarf: Basically fine. Possibly we could have more than one type. My main gripe here is stats. Dwarves are skilled at crafts and clever at designing things, but don't necessarily make the best choices - I would expect plusses to INT and DEX and minus to WIS, and they are currently the opposite of these.
• Elf, High Elf: First a quote: "In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race". In contrast, the Elf race gets -1 to STR, WIS and CON, and a lousy hitdie. I would suggest having at least two kinds of elf, with one being essentially the current High Elf representing the Noldor, who also tended to be canny but poor at life choices, and any others having +WIS and -INT.
• Half Elf: Tolkien makes a big deal of the fact that there were only three unions of Elf and Human (Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril, Aragorn/Arwen), but that can be written off as only three prominent ones (especially since he implies that the people of Dol Amroth have elven blood). On the other hand, what is this race actually adding, and would it be better to have another type of elf or human? I'm open to be convinced either way.
• Half Orc, Half Troll: No indication of these existing in Tolkien's writing, but maybe he was just too high-minded to talk about the necessary shenanigans. These both seem to have good gameplay niches, and I'm happy to keep them.
• Gnome: Here we have a problem. This is a D&D race with nothing in common with anything in Middle Earth, except in as far as they're derivative of both hobbits and dwarves. Also "gnome" was Tolkien's name for the Noldor for a long time. Need to go.
• Kobold: Just no.

Monsters

Here I'm prepared to be a lot more lax. Tolkien talked a bit about there existing weird stuff people didn't have names for; we're just filling that in a bit. Possibly some of the specifically Greek stuff should come out - Medusa, Atlas, Kronos. Also there are some potential unused Tolkienian monsters that could come in - for example O has Tevildo, Prince of Cats and FA has Wiruin, the Maelstrom. On the whole, though, I don't feel that there's a huge amount of thematic work to be done on monsters.

Other Stuff

The only other thing that really comes up is the anachronistic nature of the game, with everyone from all times thrown in at once. IMHO the quote on the splashscreen is enough cover

Keen to hear people's opinions on this, especially the player races.

[jevansau]

In principle, keeping to Tolkien compatible races seems reasonable - it adds flavor with no particular down side.

I think when looking at the races, it is important to consider what gameplay niches they fill, and every race should be a reasonable choice for at least one class - unless you want a challenge race of course.

The minor themed abilities at recent releases are good. On the other hand, some method of balancing the more powerful races apart from a large experience penalty would be welcome. Adding tedium is not a good way to balance.
Perhaps more distinctive penalties would make for more interesting choices.

I don't feel strongly about the monsters.

[Mondkalb]

About the mixed races: Half Elf isn't a great choice anyway, I think we could get rid of them.
Half Trolls could be proper Trolls but with severe penalties (make them stupid and maybe vulnerable to light or so).
Half Orcs could be proper Orcs with other penalties, they should get very bad stealth at least.

About the monsters - I am not very happy with the greek mythology monsters, they just don't feel right.

[Nick]

On the other hand, some method of balancing the more powerful races apart from a large experience penalty would be welcome. Adding tedium is not a good way to balance.

I am planning to remove XP penalties. In fact, I see no reason for races to be balanced against each other.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I've always thought that Bill Ferny, the "swarthy sneering fellow" in Bree where "queer folk call at his house" and who was very close with "Southern strangers", had some orcish blood in him.

An aside: Bill Ferny sold a haggard pony to the fledgling company of hobbits and Strider for "twelve silver pennies", paid for by Mr. Butterbur who added another eighteen pence to Merry as "some compensation", but "thirty silver pennies was a sore blow to him". I've always wondered whether Tolkien was making a subtle reference to Judas Iscariot's thirty pieces of silver.

[kaypy]

The southerner in particular is described by Frodo as "He looks more than half a goblin"

So the concept is there if nothing else...

[luneya]

Half-orcs are fine by Tolkien canon. There is a clear suggestion in The Two Towers that Saruman made his Uruk-hai light-resistant by cross-breeding the original orcs with humans.

The current versions of elves, half-elves, and dwarves have abilities based on the D&D races of those names rather than Tolkien. As you note, it doesn't fit well with Tolkien's descriptions of those races. Reversing INT and WIS on elves and dwarves fits well with what those stats would mean to a non-adventurer. But in-game, it would make dwarves candidates to become arcane magic users, which doesn't really fit.

Come to think of it, the canonical users of arcane magic in Tolkien are pretty much all Maiar or their descendants: Gandalf, Melian, Luthien, Sauron, etc. Do we want to add in demigods as a racial option? If we do, that'll displace the high-elves as the race with the strongest intrinsic stats.

[Grotug]

I am planning to remove XP penalties. In fact, I see no reason for races to be balanced against each other.

Hmm... not sure I like this. When I started playing Angband I'd play as High-Elf Paladin to make my life easier. Once I came to understand what the exp penalty meant, it was a good motivator for me to try other class/combos; and it gave other class/combos a distinctively different experience to play over the very slow experience gain of HE/Paladin (I used to hoard mushrooms of vigor--as HT/Warrior I never need to do this).

I think varying levels of experience gain are one more way different class/combos are ... different; and I think anything that increases a noticeable difference between race/classes is good for the game. Plus, it kinda makes sense that a race/class that starts with some experience would need to experience more stuff in order to gain more experience/levels and a stupider race/class like HT/Warrior would require experiencing less in order to gain experience/levels.

I also don't understand why more powerful race/class combos shouldn't be rebalanced against weaker ones. Although I suppose by not doing so it's sort of like having difficulty settings. Still, I like that there is some kind of benefit for taking on more difficult combinations, and faster experience gain seems like a good way to do it.

EDIT: I'm not opposed to losing the Greek monsters. And would be very happy to see new ones that are closer to Tolkien's universe. For example, how come there is no kraken in Angband? (I guess you'd have to add water to the dungeon in order to have one, although this logic doesn't stop Osse from showing up, whose description is of being from the sea). I also would like to see monsters/uniques added that were close to Tolkien's heart from the books and poems he enjoyed (such as Grendel and Fafnir).

Here is a description of Fafnir (who I guess was a dwarf before he was a dragon): http://norse-mythology.net/fafnir-th...rse-mythology/ I mean, it doesn't get more thematically fitting than this.

“In what way will you fight the dragon?” asked the boatman.
“With my trusty sword Balmung I shall slay him,” answered Siegfried.
“But he wears the Helmet of Terror, and he breathes deathly poisons, and his eyes dart forth lightning, and no man can withstand his strength,” said the boatman.

Siegfried saw him coming far down the road, hurrying with all speed, that he might quench his thirst at the sluggish river, and hasten back to his gold; and the sound which he made was like the trampling of many feet and the jingling of many chains. With bloodshot eyes, and gaping mouth, and flaming nostrils, the hideous creature came rushing onwards. His sharp, curved claws dug deep into the soft earth; and his bat-like wings, half trailing on the ground, half flapping in the air, made a sound like that which is heard when Thor rides in his goat-drawn chariot over the dark thunder-clouds.

On came the hastening feet and the flapping wings: the red gleam from the monster’s flaming nostrils lighted up the trench where Siegfried lay. He heard a roaring and a rushing like the sound of a whirlwind in the forest; then a black, inky mass rolled above him, and all was dark.

[AnonymousHero]

Re: Trolls: Eh?

[Derakon]

• Gnome: Here we have a problem. This is a D&D race with nothing in common with anything in Middle Earth, except in as far as they're derivative of both hobbits and dwarves. Also "gnome" was Tolkien's name for the Noldor for a long time. Need to go.
• Kobold: Just no.

These two races provide good niches that I would hate to see disappear. Gnomes are tied with High-Elves for high INT scores but have poor physical scores; they also get innate Free Action and a high magic device skill. They make good mages and of course it's always fun to play a gnome warrior with a weapon bigger than the warrior is.

Kobolds are stealthy and have innate resistance to poison, which is always handy. They provide a bit of a counterpoint to hobbits, the other stealthy race, which has overall better stats but worse intrinsics.

I'm not necessarily opposed to changing their names to something more thematic, but by the same token I'm really not bothered by the presence of non-Tolkienian races. The game is very clearly a smorgasbord of content from all kinds of sources, that just happens to pull a little more heavily from Tolkien. But only a little.

Honestly I'd say that, so long as you (rightfully IMO) aren't worried about keeping the races balanced with respect to each other, more races is better than fewer. The ZAngband-derived variants have races like golems, draconians, insectoids, and spectres, and that's not even getting into the more exotic things like playing as an intelligent ring or animate sword (which might be a little outré for Vanilla). The player is always going to be a canon foreigner if only because their deeds are temporally and metaphysically impossible (not only are the uniques not all alive at the same time in-universe, but we're trying to kill a god here). If you're going to cross a line, you might as well take a flying leap, I say...

[bunnies]

Races are stat modifiers, innates resistances / sustains / powers, which ultimately have minimal effect in the late game. If the rework is switching numbers around, removing xp penalty, streamlining races... then gameplay won't be affected much I think. From a theme point of view, I'm mostly indifferent.

However, if the rework involves even more, such as racial abilities, racial specific interactions etc., perhaps you could share your thoughts on what the final state of the rework would look like.


Also, I do have slight issue with Dwarf Int. Perhaps you're taking reference from the Silmarillion and literature, but vast majority of popular media has not been kind to dwarves and their intelligence. Even in Peter Jackson's middle earth movies, the dwarves look like they're there as bumbling comedy relief. From a general populace POV, it might seem... odd for Gimli to have more innate intelligence than Elrond.

[Derakon]

Also, I do have slight issue with Dwarf Int. Perhaps you're taking reference from the Silmarillion and literature, but vast majority of popular media has not been kind to dwarves and their intelligence. Even in Peter Jackson's middle earth movies, the dwarves look like they're there as bumbling comedy relief. From a general populace POV, it might seem... odd for Gimli to have more innate intelligence than Elrond.

This is a good point: you contradict popular culture at your own peril. Witness the many, many arguments we've had on these forums about whether mages ought to be able to rely solely on spells for everything they need to do.

[bunnies]

[*] Half Orc, Half Troll: No indication of these existing in Tolkien's writing, but maybe he was just too high-minded to talk about the necessary shenanigans. These both seem to have good gameplay niches, and I'm happy to keep them.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Half-trolls

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Half-orcs

[AnonymousHero]

If we want to be conservative, perhaps Easterling would be an appropriate addition/replacement for one of the races?

Personally, I'm with Derakon on having lots of races (even non-thematic) as long there's something different about them. For example, Golem in Entroband has innate pStun which is great... but it has massive penalties to INT/WIS, so it's painful for spellcasters (w/o absurd equipment) who have the most use for pStun. (It's interesting because pStun can be rather difficult to come by.)

Going even further, I'm also rather fond of sub-races from ToME2 where there are subraces like Vampire, Zombie, Spectre (w/passwall) etc. These are restricted based on race, so there are no Zombie Ents, for example. Most of them don't really change the gameplay massively, they just provide a lilttle bit of differentiation and can provide nice early-game bonuses. (Examples of race+subrace combinations: Red Dragon, Ethereal Dragon, Zombie Easterling.)

[fizzix]

I'll provide my thoughts on races. There's really three aspects that need to be balanced to some degree. Exactly where the balance falls is difficult, and everyone has their own preferences. The three aspects are:

1) Gameplay considerations. Each race should have some interesting aspect to it that distinguishes it from other races. Each should have some viable build (although there's room for difficult challenge races, and easy super races)

2) Lore considerations. This is what Nick's first post focuses on. And it's important. The game is based on the Tolkien universe, so it's a good idea to keep things somewhat grounded in it.

3) Common perceptions. The common perception of an elf as a frailish, skinny, agile, magic-user is very pronounced. Similary, the perception of a dwarf as both strong and stupid and having a Scottish accent is also present. It's very much ok to tweak these expectations a little, but as other's noted there's some peril here. RIght now the races hew more to popular conceptions rather than Tolkien verisimilitude.

My personal inclination is usually to focus on the gameplay considerations, with roles 2 and 3 providing flavor but taking a back seat. I know that many people disagree with this approach, and that's ok. But I can outline where the races go considering gameplay.

For gameplay purposes. In angband the main difference is provided by classes. Races mostly affect a difficulty scaling. This can be changed if desired. A change would be to give races specific racial abilities. We already have this in a sense with innate resistances, but providing races with active abilities that they unlock as they level could be useful. I'll provided some idea for abilities at the end.

I'll refer to race stats below. Stats given are in this canonical order (str, int, wis, dex, con)

High elf - This is the uber race. Pluses to all stats. See invisible. They're good as they are. Can be renamed Noldor if you really want. But this is ok as is. stats like +2 +2 +2 +2 +1

Dunadan - Another strong race choice, also pretty good as is. Should be a cut below the high-elf. Dunadan should be pushed a bit towards tanky caster classes. Priest/paladin are natural choices. stats like +3 +1 +1 +2 +2

Human - generic bog standard race. Good as is. Should play any class reasonably well. stats like +0 +0 +0 +0 +0. Probably a challenge class.

Wood elf - replacement to standard elf. Should also be an above average class. Something like +0, +1 +1 +2 +0 . Wood elves should be pushed towards the ranger/druid classes.

Dwarf - This is the current angband (d&d) dwarf. Perhaps kill the wisdom bonus. Also maybe reduce the blind resistance which is super strong and replace it with something else. Stats could be +2 -1 +1 -2 +2. Like current dwarves they look best in warriors/priests and paladins. They're probably worse than dunadan at priest and paladin though.

Naugrim - This is the Tolkien dwarf. It should essentially replace the current gnome in gameplay purposes. Very good with devices, high int. It wouldn't be as physically frail as a gnome though. Stats like +0 +4 -2 +0 +3

Troll: An above average class, just crappy at spellcasting. They probably should have even more additional penalties to spellcasting than bad stats. Perhaps something like permanent encumberance penalties. Troll Warrior will be a go to class. stats like +5 -4 -4 -2 +4

Orc: Another warrior class but one that gets more dex and less str and con. Probably should get a bonus to stealth, and probably the ability to see in the dark. Orc rogues should be viable too. stats like +2 -3 -3 +3 +1

Hobbit: prototypical halfling class. Geared towards stealth builds, but also can play the frail mage archetype. Stats like -4 +3 +1 +5 +0. With raw numbers the stats look great, but the -4 to Str is a huge penalty.

Yeek: yeeks are Angband originals. They replace kobolds, and are a true challenge class. Stats like -3 -2 -2 -1 -3. Yeeks like kobolds will get resist poison, and probably at some point get acid immunity. They could also have additional penalties, like being forbidden to use specific large weapons. (hobbits could get this penalty also).

Ent: A Tolkien specific race. Perhaps one that provides a unique gameplay style. permanent -10 to speed and natural AC that grows with level. Permanent speed items are half as effective. Immune to temporary speed buffs and debuffs (including !speed, _haste and inertia/gravity hound breaths) Fire vulnerability. Somewhere like 3x the HP of Trolls (we're talking 3000 hp or something at level 50 and max Con (enough to survive 2 full damage fire breaths should be the metric, so if we make fire breaths more reasonable, their HP can be cut a little, just remember they need a lot, at least 2x a normal class since they're going to get double moved all the time). Perhaps no ability to wield weapons, instead getting bonuses to unarmed attacks, and additional blows with XP levels. Maybe they can wield two shields instead. Stats like +8 +0 +2 -6 +10.

Further racial distinctions can be provided by active abilities. These could work the same way as activations, and just like activations, they could have a cool down timer. Some possible abilities are:

"protection from evil like spell" for high elves
"detect living, or temp ESP for living creatures" for dunadan
"fashion wand" for naugrim - destroys 1-3 wands and produces a wand of their choice, probably no more advanced that acid bolts
"hurl boulder" for half troll
"root" for ents - cannot move for N turns, get some large number of temporary XP and some extra blows.
"berserk" for orcs - bonuses to blows and damage, followed up by a period of slowness

lots of ideas are possible here.