Class/magic feature branch

[Antoine]

Why not simply say that a given monster can only be pickpocketed once?

Then you don't need monster inventories.

A.

[Derakon]

*BUT* wouldn't this also encourage the "kill every unique" before facing Morgoth playstyle, since if an artifact is in a monster's inventory it will never be found unless @ kills (or steals) from that particular monster. Maybe that's what is intended, but it seems to me to violate the idea that Angband does not force or favor one playstyle over another.

Hm, that's a fair point. I dimly recall that we have some logic in place already for "this artifact is notionally in this monster's inventory, but since we also generated it right here, we replace the one in inventory with a different item". Am I misremembering? If it does exist, it could be applied in this case -- if a unique has an artifact and the artifact gets generated, then the unique's item gets replaced by another randomly-generated level-appropriate item.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

As a bonus, this would remove the incentive to keep uniques alive so they can drop higher-quality stuff later.

*BUT* wouldn't this also encourage the "kill every unique" before facing Morgoth playstyle, since if an artifact is in a monster's inventory it will never be found unless @ kills (or steals) from that particular monster. Maybe that's what is intended, but it seems to me to violate the idea that Angband does not force or favor one playstyle over another.

[Derakon]

Unique is generated with items A & B. If you leave the level and generate him again, he still has items A & B. Then you'd only be able to steal a fixed amount of stuff from the same unique. That would be really hard to implement I guess, unless uniques get fixed drops hardcoded in monster.txt.

We do already save monster inventories, we just delete them when the player leaves the level. So the required change would be something like:

* At start of game, generate all uniques with level-appropriate drops, but flag them as "inactive". Flagged monsters don't appear on the level (maybe they're just treated at being at x=1000, y=1000 or something).
* Unique monster data goes in a new section of the savefile that is always saved (separate from the data for non-unique monsters on the current level).
* When generating a unique, instead of actually generating it, just remove the inactive flag and give it a valid position.
* When leaving the level, all living uniques on it are re-flagged.

As a bonus, this would remove the incentive to keep uniques alive so they can drop higher-quality stuff later.

[PowerWyrm]

What do you mean by fixed inventories?

Unique is generated with items A & B. If you leave the level and generate him again, he still has items A & B. Then you'd only be able to steal a fixed amount of stuff from the same unique. That would be really hard to implement I guess, unless uniques get fixed drops hardcoded in monster.txt.

[Nick]

But monsters do the opposite, right?

"The brigand touches you. 1100 gold pieces were stolen! There is a puff of smoke!"

Yes, that's very true. I may start by just changing some of the numbers.

Adding fixed inventories would fix the problem, but that would probably be a lot of work.

What do you mean by fixed inventories?

BTW you can steal Morgoth's crown and Grond as a Rogue? That's a bit silly...

I hadn't actually considered it as a possibility - I suspect it's about to get a lot less likely

[PowerWyrm]

OK, I can see this is a problem. One possible solution is to prevent the player form using any teleportation magic for a few turns after a theft - this would make the Hit and Run spell more valuable, too.

But monsters do the opposite, right?

"The brigand touches you. 1100 gold pieces were stolen! There is a puff of smoke!"

Adding fixed inventories would fix the problem, but that would probably be a lot of work.

BTW you can steal Morgoth's crown and Grond as a Rogue? That's a bit silly... In MAngband, players can have access to these items because of the innate multiplayer nature of the game, but any player trying to wield Grond will get a "you are too weak to wield the mighty Grond" message until they kill Morgoth. Trying to wear the Crown is even worse... it kills the character outright ("you are blasted by the power of the Crown" -- 5000 unresistable dam).

[Nick]

Nick, here's some feedback on the Rogue.

Thanks, this is really helpful.

Unfortunately, once teleportation (especially Teleport Other) becomes available, the fun is lost. It becomes "steal, steal, steal, teleport, find a new unique monster, rinse and repeat". I don't have a constructive idea how to fix this at the moment, I'm afraid. Even if Teleport Other isn't available as a spell, it will still be there in wands and rods. (Teleport Self and Teleport Other are probably the most overpowered tools in the entire game in the first place... but that's a bigger can of worms than I'd be happy to open.)

OK, I can see this is a problem. One possible solution is to prevent the player form using any teleportation magic for a few turns after a theft - this would make the Hit and Run spell more valuable, too.

Stealing also creates the rather bizarre incentive of keeping uniques alive. What's the point of killing Ar Pharazon, if you can just empty his pocketses, go down a level, and repeat the exercise?

Hm, yes. Maybe uniques need to be extra hard to steal from.

By the way, what does the chance of a successful theft depend on? My impression is that it sees character and monster levels, whether the monster is awake, and probably character stealth and speed. I'd be inclined to remove character level and speed from the formula, so as to encourage low level adventurers to steal from dangerous foes. However, that might make dwarf and half-troll rogues a bit pointless.

Player theft skill is based on stealth and DEX (penalised heavily if the player is blind, confused or hallucinating), and monster protection from theft is based on level and monster/player speed difference (halved if the monster is asleep). Any theft attempt is the same from the player end, and the monster gets a roll to see how well it responds.

I'm inclined to think that the changes above plus a bit of a buff to monster protection will be a good first attempt at difficulty adjustment.

[Voovus]

Nick, here's some feedback on the Rogue. The character feels different from all the others, in a good way, though it also feels a bit un-Vanilla-ish. But maybe I've just been using the steal ability too much.

The Rogue is a good fighter, and has a selection of some really excellent spells (phase door, object detection, reveal monsters, teleport self, teleport other). The game felt significantly easier than, say, with a necromancer. The absolutely central ability is stealing - it generates a large amount of high quality treasure. In principle, that's a great idea. However, it works a bit too well in practice.

In the very early game, pinching something from Wormtongue and then running for your life is fun. Using up all you phase doors, confuse monsters and so on, in order to get a shiny object is very satisfying.

Unfortunately, once teleportation (especially Teleport Other) becomes available, the fun is lost. It becomes "steal, steal, steal, teleport, find a new unique monster, rinse and repeat". I don't have a constructive idea how to fix this at the moment, I'm afraid. Even if Teleport Other isn't available as a spell, it will still be there in wands and rods. (Teleport Self and Teleport Other are probably the most overpowered tools in the entire game in the first place... but that's a bigger can of worms than I'd be happy to open.)

Stealing also creates the rather bizarre incentive of keeping uniques alive. What's the point of killing Ar Pharazon, if you can just empty his pocketses, go down a level, and repeat the exercise?

Having said that, beating Morgoth to pulp with Grond was very satisfying... even if the time it took me to steal it might have been enough to kill him in the first place.

By the way, what does the chance of a successful theft depend on? My impression is that it sees character and monster levels, whether the monster is awake, and probably character stealth and speed. I'd be inclined to remove character level and speed from the formula, so as to encourage low level adventurers to steal from dangerous foes. However, that might make dwarf and half-troll rogues a bit pointless.

Oh, and the monster screaming (siren effect?) is a nice touch. A bit of a shock when it happens for the first time, especially if it's in the middle of a vault.

[jevansau]

I think creatures in single combat shouldn't waste turns on summoning, and that is probably enough of a nerf. For Q's, probably fair that 1 class has a good way to deal with them

[Nick]

Played through a dwarf paladin on build 144 - ended up playing like an augmented warrior, which seems reasonable.

The slay evil, kill demon spells let you just choose a weapon for maximum base damage, so quite powerful. Finding a 7d9 randart accentuated this, although a +2 blows MOD would likely have been better. Would be nice to see the effect on the weapon though.

The single combat is very powerful - makes summoners powerless, and gives you a lot of free turns against most late monsters. I know there is no escape, but by the time you have it, most things are easy one on one.

All the spells were useful, and mostly all through the game.

OK, this sounds like it's pretty much working as designed. Do you think single combat is overpowered?

[jevansau]

Played through a dwarf paladin on build 144 - ended up playing like an augmented warrior, which seems reasonable.

The slay evil, kill demon spells let you just choose a weapon for maximum base damage, so quite powerful. Finding a 7d9 randart accentuated this, although a +2 blows MOD would likely have been better. Would be nice to see the effect on the weapon though.

The single combat is very powerful - makes summoners powerless, and gives you a lot of free turns against most late monsters. I know there is no escape, but by the time you have it, most things are easy one on one.

All the spells were useful, and mostly all through the game.

[Voovus]

Teleport Other and Teleport Self are much clearer about who or what is being teleported "away".

Yes, which is why I suggested tweaking it in only one character's (Rogue's) spellbook, where it comes with a spell description anyway. But if people think it's confusing, annoying or just plain too silly, then there's, of course, no point.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Another insect, I'm afraid: the Rogue's Detect Stairs doesn't detect stairs.

On a different note, I'd like to propose changing the name of the Rogue's version of the Teleport Other spell to "Teleport Away", in honour of the original Rogue from the 80s.

I disagree. It was changed for a reason, as Teleport Other and Teleport Self are much clearer about who or what is being teleported "away".

[Voovus]

Another insect, I'm afraid: the Rogue's Detect Stairs doesn't detect stairs.

On a different note, I'd like to propose changing the name of the Rogue's version of the Teleport Other spell to "Teleport Away", in honour of the original Rogue from the 80s.