Class/magic feature branch

[Huqhox]

Then I guess I have my answer...

I think we were looking at the same thing from different ends and meeting in the middle

[PowerWyrm]

Eventually @ grew enough to be able to cast spells from book 4, and that one is an entirely different matter. All spells are excellent, with the possible exception of pukelman. The loss of speed is likely going to be a dealbreaker before +10 base speed; and casting both haste and transformation doesnt really work when the manapool is low and the failrates are high. Just haste self without pukelman is superior. Also, shouldnt the shape between the fox and the bear be a wolf ?

I support the change pukelman -> wolf.

[Estie]

I support the change pukelman -> wolf.

With Tolkien, wolves are on the dark side. I remember a fox sniffing hobbits sleeping outside, and Beorn; wolves are always connected with orcs or fell winters. No idea what a druid would be though.

[Derakon]

How about a raven? Might not be a good match for the form's current abilities though.

[Estie]

Hmm the obvious candidate would be the ent. Now ents are at the top of the power curve; so maybe replace pukelman by bear, and add ent as 3rd ?

The speed penalty woud thematically fit for the ent, and as the ultimate form, if the penalty is a flat substraction, then simply equipping over-speed would be a small price to pay for an improved combat form that ends up at the same effective speed as everyone else.

I still like the simple fox - wolf - bear, too; middle earth mythology be damned.
Pukelman is more of a golem in my mind, more fitting for arcane.

[Nick]

I'm actually looking at shapechanges that are all quite different from each other and have distinct uses for the player, rather than a progression. I have some ideas, we'll see how they pan out

[Philip]

Canonically, the pukelmen are statues made by the Druedain, who are very closely associated with trees and generally quite druidish behavior. Basically think of them less as golems and more as stone guardians of the forest, carved by druids. Now, obviously, canon is not everything, but there are no actual canon problems with a pukelman form, and the idea of a slow, but powerful shapechange for druids seems sound to me.

A raven form would seem quite appropriate, since they show up on the side of good quite often in Tolkien, but it's not entirely clear to me what the form should offer. Stealth/speed/spellcasting (symbol of wisdom), but quite squishy? Probably too powerful for kiting and stuff, though. There is one more animal that turns up a lot, which is the Eagle, but that's more associated with Manwe, and there is no easy niche for it in terms of power, especially since a huge eagle would have trouble flying around in a dungeon.

There is one more animal that I have unfortunately omitted, but is also important, which is the noble donkey. I think donkey form should give resistance to status effects (or even perfect saving throw?) but not very much else (carrying capacity?).

[Nick]

Canonically, the pukelmen are statues made by the Druedain, who are very closely associated with trees and generally quite druidish behavior. Basically think of them less as golems and more as stone guardians of the forest, carved by druids. Now, obviously, canon is not everything, but there are no actual canon problems with a pukelman form, and the idea of a slow, but powerful shapechange for druids seems sound to me.

A raven form would seem quite appropriate, since they show up on the side of good quite often in Tolkien, but it's not entirely clear to me what the form should offer. Stealth/speed/spellcasting (symbol of wisdom), but quite squishy? Probably too powerful for kiting and stuff, though. There is one more animal that turns up a lot, which is the Eagle, but that's more associated with Manwe, and there is no easy niche for it in terms of power, especially since a huge eagle would have trouble flying around in a dungeon.

There is one more animal that I have unfortunately omitted, but is also important, which is the noble donkey. I think donkey form should give resistance to status effects (or even perfect saving throw?) but not very much else (carrying capacity?).

I think ponies are more Tolkienian than donkeys. The rest of your speculation is ... quite good

[Nick]

New builds up on the build page (reminder, source is available to browse on Github, or as a zip file). Changes include:

• Savefiles broken - don't try to use an old one, it will definitely fail
• Big changes to druids, including multiple new game mechanics. I'm not going to describe them here, but make people actually look at them
• Smaller adjustments to priests
• Some effort to make experience for first cast of spells a bit more reasonable
• Dungeon books made more common

Please let me know what you think, and if I've broken anything.

[Estie]

Canonically, the pukelmen are statues made by the Druedain, who are very closely associated with trees and generally quite druidish behavior. Basically think of them less as golems and more as stone guardians of the forest, carved by druids. Now, obviously, canon is not everything, but there are no actual canon problems with a pukelman form, and the idea of a slow, but powerful shapechange for druids seems sound to me.

A raven form would seem quite appropriate, since they show up on the side of good quite often in Tolkien, but it's not entirely clear to me what the form should offer. Stealth/speed/spellcasting (symbol of wisdom), but quite squishy? Probably too powerful for kiting and stuff, though. There is one more animal that turns up a lot, which is the Eagle, but that's more associated with Manwe, and there is no easy niche for it in terms of power, especially since a huge eagle would have trouble flying around in a dungeon.

Its not like I didnt get where the pukelman shape is coming from. Its more that I find moving stone statue unfitting unless empowered by "bad" arcane magic. And I dont think they defend anything in the books. Also, a druid based on Druedain wouldnt have elemental spells. The only thing I can think of that might come close to this DnD druid would be Radagast.

And as for slow but powerful, the numbers are just completely off. A low speed druid loses, among other things, about 20% damage from the -4 speed and the boost isnt even making up for that. If you foolishly cast it at base speed, you become both slow and do less damage.

[Nick]

Its not like I didnt get where the pukelman shape is coming from. Its more that I find moving stone statue unfitting unless empowered by "bad" arcane magic. And I dont think they defend anything in the books.

Here's what I was basing it on - it's not a perfect match, but it's not far off.

[Sky]

i am now grinding for that one legendary dragon armor (i've already found a power dragon sm but it just won't cut it) and here's my thoughts on the druid.

1. it really makes things easier if every mob you fight is confused

2. you will spend most of the game in fox form
sometimes you ID items you walk on, other times you don't. i suggest being able to see items, but not use them.
the command to come out of fox form (m+y) doesn't work if you are blinded or confused, but Quaff does. (q-> do you want to change form->y)

3. the endgame spells are .. ok, but nothing to write home about.
the ice storm LOS spell is cool to clear vaults and pits and annoying townsfolk. you can kill big stuff with meteor swarm and rift if you want, but you could instead just shapeshift and hit them with your axe.

i'm not sure what pukelman and bear shape are supposed to do, when fox form gives you +5 spd and +1 blows.

4. rivitalize is fantastic, and herbal heal is fine as it is, considering how little you pay for restore.

probing, polymorph, mass sleep and mass confuse are useless, but earthquake is the closest thing to a "block corridor" spell and i escaped a bunch of angry mobs because of it.

because you only use utility spells, except fox form, sense surroundings, and the heal + restore spells, you don't really need mana. i completely ignored WIS in favour of bonk-on-the-head stats and just melee'd everything. plays just like a paladin, with added plasma breath.

[Estie]

i'm not sure what pukelman and bear shape are supposed to do, when fox form gives you +5 spd and +1 blows.

I completely missed that +1 attack. I saw a stealth bonus and jumped to the conclusion that fox was a sneaky shape.

[Nick]

i am now grinding for that one legendary dragon armor (i've already found a power dragon sm but it just won't cut it) and here's my thoughts on the druid.

Thanks a lot, this is very helpful.

1. it really makes things easier if every mob you fight is confused

Right, so Confuse Monster is worth it?

2. you will spend most of the game in fox form
sometimes you ID items you walk on, other times you don't. i suggest being able to see items, but not use them.
the command to come out of fox form (m+y) doesn't work if you are blinded or confused, but Quaff does. (q-> do you want to change form->y)

Good point about the shapechange back. Looks like I need to nerf the fox

3. the endgame spells are .. ok, but nothing to write home about.
the ice storm LOS spell is cool to clear vaults and pits and annoying townsfolk. you can kill big stuff with meteor swarm and rift if you want, but you could instead just shapeshift and hit them with your axe.

I'm probably OK with that.

i'm not sure what pukelman and bear shape are supposed to do, when fox form gives you +5 spd and +1 blows.

Bear is meant to be specifically for melee, and pukelman (especially as it is in the recent changes) is good for wading through lots of minor enemies - hounds, trolls, etc.

4. rivitalize is fantastic, and herbal heal is fine as it is, considering how little you pay for restore.

I've changed herbal healing to heal over time - handy for casting before shapechange, and a point of difference from priest healing.

probing, polymorph, mass sleep and mass confuse are useless, but earthquake is the closest thing to a "block corridor" spell and i escaped a bunch of angry mobs because of it.

I have ditched polymorph, probing and mass confuse, but mass sleep has been improved (it no longer wakes eveerything up and then tries to put it back to sleep). Earthquake (the druid spell only) I have made smaller area of effect and targetable, so it should work even better as "block corridor".

because you only use utility spells, except fox form, sense surroundings, and the heal + restore spells, you don't really need mana. i completely ignored WIS in favour of bonk-on-the-head stats and just melee'd everything. plays just like a paladin, with added plasma breath.

Yes, that's interesting. We'll see how playstyles evolve.

[PowerWyrm]

Good point about the shapechange back. Looks like I need to nerf the fox

In PWMAngband, shapechangers have their hps changed depending on the monster they polymorph into with formula being 60% of character hp + 40% of monster hp. If you use a form with low hps, you get a big decrease in hps. You could do that in V, with fox getting low hps and bear getting high hps. That would nerf the fox and make the bear more useful.